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El Burdo

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

Do you know these internals? 
Hi - I came across this photograph today from my historical artefact collection (ie a packing case, lost in storage)

Can you tell me what the bracing system is please? I can't see it online though I'm sure it isn't unusual. I thought I'd built it as a Torres, but with cypress, so maybe it's a classical system.

It's my first flamenco guitar, relatively heavy, with a mahogany neck and what at the time was a 25 year old unmatched alpine spruce top, sounds very flamenco - not loud, but with a very even response across all the strings. Hardly fine woodwork, but a great sound.

Thanks.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 21:25:01
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
I might be wrong because I've only payed attention to the ones that had the diagonal treble brace... look for Ramirez, that might be the way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 21:39:50
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
Rui - yes, I can see the similarity. The treble bar sort of stops short. Thanks.

But, I've just done another search using different terms ('classical guitar bracing'), and the only reasonably similar search appears on....Anders website!! (I hope it's OK to use the picture, Anders?).

So, maybe it's Hernandez and Aguardo prior to Anders' tweaking?

(It's also possible it came from G. Scott of Leeds College of Music Luthiery class too. He retired circa 1993.)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 10 2014 22:23:13
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Well, 9 braces and 2 lower harmonic bars is normally considered to be first used by Ignacio Fleta, who made relatively big classical guitars mostly with cedar top and Indian rosewood.

This one is lighter built and looks pretty close to what I´ve seen Manuel Bellido do for some flamenco guitars. (he did all kinds of bracings).
Personally i cant see any reason to put so many sticks into a flamenco guitar.

The Hernandez y Aguado that you posted is a very lightly built classical. A very elegant spanish sounding guitar. I´m not totally sure, but I believe John Williams played and recorded a lot with a Hernandez Y Aguado guitar with spruce top and this bracing system.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 7:20:31
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Thanks Anders. I can see some similar layouts with Bellido and Fleta online but nothing shown that's quite the same. I agree it seems quite busy for a flamenco.

One thing, I notice that on the bracing system on my guitar the bass side is spread, but on yours you spread out the treble side. That means presumably that cross grain stiffness is desired differently - so the guitar responds differently for the different modes of vibration. i.e. maybe mine is a classical system and not flamenco.

Guessing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 9:37:12
 
Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
quote:

One thing, I notice that on the bracing system on my guitar the bass side is spread, but on yours you spread out the treble side. That means presumably that cross grain stiffness is desired differently - so the guitar responds differently for the different modes of vibration. i.e. maybe mine is a classical system and not flamenco.


Mine is just a copy. I havent built many classicals, so when i do, I copy and the Hernandez y Aguado is my favorite. It still has this very Spanish sound and if the stringheight is low enough, it even does rasgueados pretty well.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2014 15:29:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
I was not saying anything because I really don't l know what to say.

At the beginning of learning to build I used think flamenco guitars were strictly five fans braced tops, then as I began to explore more flamenco guitars with lights and mirrors I realized its not just bracing.

I saw them with nine fans and they still sounded flamenco not classical. It's how the bridge, top thickness -fan brace strength- cross grain stiffness- actions etc. are all handled which changes a gutiar form 'Classica' to 'Flamenco'-

It looks to have the makings of a guitar that would work. Keep thinking about it and keep looking in other flamenco guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2014 23:27:53
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

I was not saying anything because I really don't l know what to say.


Then dont say anything. You are not obliged to write on this forum.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 8:10:56
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Then dont say anything. You are not obliged to write on this forum.

I asked Stephen personally to say something in another post, Anders. And this is because I know he has a lot of knowledge and experience and shares it with generosity.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 8:59:07
 
Anders Eliasson

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Very well.
If its of any help, the Bellido guitars with 9 braces and double lower harmonic bar are by many considered to be some of his finest guitars. The one I tried was very good, so, I agree with Stephen, that very often the amount of braces and how and where thay are glued is not so important. There are many other ingredients and its more about how it all comes together as whole.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 10:49:00
 
Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
According to this post from guitar salon and the picture, this seams to be "Amadeo" patern

http://www.guitarsalon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5881



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 11:07:57
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
Thanks.

After your last post I had a look at the general bracing threads here. In one, you say there are no rules, and most people tend to agree with you. The basic Santos/Torres design is the one to follow and the rest comes from experience.

And there's the rub.

The problem for a beginner working alone is not knowing or having anyone available (other than on forums) to speak about how wood flexes and what to feel for. How to tell what is acceptable or excessive cross grain stiffness, what is the correct ball park for the mass and thickness of the top? There must be a point at which the stiffness of a top means that it doesn't need bracing? So when a bracing system is so clearly predicated on theory it just gets confusing. It's probably all in books. I'll have to buy some.

But anyway, I can see it's all been said before. That top just looked well-known! And it isn't. Thanks Arash, you posted during this response. It does look similar but with more braces, and a slightly different diagonal. I'll check it though thank you.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 11:13:34
 
estebanana

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Burdo, you're being extra tenacious, which means you're hungry for the knowledge. This is good.

More soon.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 11:45:46
 
El Burdo

 

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Well irony. I implied I don't have many books. So I looked in one of the two I do have. And it's there. (Courtesy of 'Guitars: from Renaissance to Rock by Tom and Mary Ann Evans'). It's the design of Marcelino Lopez Nieto and I must have just chosen to use it, for the sound reason that 'it looks good'. I might also have made it upside down.

And interestingly (from Zavaletas) ..."he worked for a time (1971-75) making guitars for Hernandez y Aguado, and he informally learned much the theory of his craft from the widow of Santos Hernandez in whose workshop he hung out regularly as did many of the leading musicians of the time."

The others are 2. Torres and 3. David Rubio and 5. Manzanero. But then, you knew that



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 11:47:34
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

If its of any help, the Bellido guitars with 9 braces and double lower harmonic bar are by many considered to be some of his finest guitars. The one I tried was very good, so, I agree with Stephen, that very often the amount of braces and how and where thay are glued is not so important. There are many other ingredients and its more about how it all comes together as whole.


I agree. I have two Manuel Bellido guitars - one (1990) with the lightweight version of Fleta strutting and the other (1995) with a more conventional five fan struts and two closing struts system. Although people tell me that there are differences in sound I find that the feel (more important to me) of both guitars is very similar. The 1990 is the best (for me) guitar that I have owned.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2014 14:02:40
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
quote:

ell irony. I implied I don't have many books. So I looked in one of the two I do have. And it's there. (Courtesy of 'Guitars: from Renaissance to Rock by Tom and Mary Ann Evans'). It's the design of Marcelino Lopez Nieto and I must have just chosen to use it, for the sound reason that 'it looks good'. I might also have made it upside down.


That guitar is pictured as if you were looking through the top, so you probably built is the right way. Although, if you restring it as a left hander I doubt is would change much if at all. Meaning does it really matter which way the cut off bar faces; towards the treble side of cutting of the bass side?

And take those charts with a grain of salt, no pun intended. Each of those makers did other brace patterns as well.

That book by the Evans' is actually a good resource. I wish I had a copy. I used refer to it in Stewart Ports shop when I had my work bench parked there.

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David Rubio based most of his career designs on a guitar he owned that was made by Simplicio. Look at his work and Simplicio's to see what he took away and made into his own.
_______________

I think one good strategy is to study one guitar maker who was a past master until you can't stand it anymore and then you say "Ok you old bastard I'm flipping you the bird get the hell out of my shop!" Then you think you're hot **** and begin making guitars, but then you have to invite the old bastard back over because he actually knew something.

It's like you study one of two important makers then you naturally individuate from them, but still stay in that school. It's one way.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 0:14:02
 
El Burdo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 7:08:28
 
Joan Maher

 

Posts: 213
Joined: Dec. 3 2013
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
If you already haven't check out "making master guitars" by Roy Courtnall - great book that explains the details of each bracing pattern of the great luthiers.. (Hernandez y Aguado are included)




quote:

ORIGINAL: El Burdo

Hi - I came across this photograph today from my historical artefact collection (ie a packing case, lost in storage)

Can you tell me what the bracing system is please? I can't see it online though I'm sure it isn't unusual. I thought I'd built it as a Torres, but with cypress, so maybe it's a classical system.

It's my first flamenco guitar, relatively heavy, with a mahogany neck and what at the time was a 25 year old unmatched alpine spruce top, sounds very flamenco - not loud, but with a very even response across all the strings. Hardly fine woodwork, but a great sound.

Thanks.




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Gracias!


Joan Josep Maher
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 7:19:27
 
El Burdo

 

Posts: 632
Joined: Sep. 8 2011
 

RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

Meaning does it really matter which way the cut off bar faces; towards the treble side of cutting of the bass side?


Seems reasonable. As someone else said a while ago the idea of an individual string activating or being controlled by a specific area of the soundboard is far-fetched. But, the idea of a specific frequency of vibration being restricted is reasonable. The point source may be the string on the saddle, but the source is distributed along the bridge to spread the initial sound pressure. I feel I can say this with confidence, having built 5 guitars - and only having thrown one away in disgust.

Good suggestion re builders. As I'm a busy kinda guy I'm going to follow Bernabe.



Thanks Joan - no I haven't seen that book though I know its name. I'll check.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 7:19:38
 
estebanana

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RE: Do you know these internals? (in reply to El Burdo) 
Funny joke, but if you follow Bernabe that is the wrong one, too many braces.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2014 12:52:07
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