Beethoven listeners

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Beethoven listeners

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estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

Beethoven listeners

I have a back up drive that a friend gave me, before he backed all my stuff, he shoved a collection of classical music on it. I think I have 3/4's of all of Beethoven music. I'm trying to listen to all of it. I don't think I've heard every piece of Beethoven's yet. I figure that is probably something I'd like to do.

Do we take Beethoven for granted? How many Beethoven's have there been?

I've always specialized in listening to a few of Beethoven's works, when I say a few I mean about maybe 20 or 25. There is so much more and I have been taking some in.

What is your favorite Beethoven and what do you want to listen to next? Which Beethoven feels most flamenco to you? If you know what I mean, not literally, but in spirit.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 12:32:30

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Interesting topic; tough questions. My favorite Beethoven is standard stuff: Piano Concertos 1,3,4; Eroica, Symphony #6, first 2 movements of #9, Egmont. Most flamenco? Beethoven doesn't strike me as flamenco as, say, Prokofiev, in the latter's first 3 piano concertos--stunning! But maybe B's Symphony #7. I do think that Beethoven could have benefited from some careful editing for length--Mozart would be a fine example of when to stop making a point. But I realize this is all so subjective, and it's our own opinions that matter. I salute you for broaching the subject!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 13:05:49

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

As a teen I dove into my dad's record collection of all the symphonies. I think I fell asleep, couldn't get into it at all, and returned to Bach. I always wanted to get into beethoven but I never had the patience. My piano player friends in college love Bach and Beethoven, but not Mozart. I wanted to investigate that thing, but I was getting into my flamenco collection at the time. In music theory class we analyzed tons of Sonata Allegro of beethoven, but nothing grabbed me musically. I will re check symphony 7, but if anybody comes across anything really nice let us know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 13:33:59

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Ricardo)

I am not a fan of the symphonic form either Ricardo.

Almost all of the pianos sonatas have sublime moments. Can't remember any particularly spanishy/flamenco bits you have to look to chopin for nongermanic harmony.

I agree with runner on the piano contertos and also the violin(where I favour Oistrakh)

Here is a nice short direct and beautiful orchestral work of which I have fond memories.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 15:19:34

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

My favorite Beethoven is the Sixth, the "Pastoral." I cannot say I've heard everything Beethoven created, but of those I know, none strikes me as "flamenco," either literally or in spirit.

Cheers,

Bill

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 16:13:45

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Beethoven's Fantasy in C minor (for Piano, Chorus, and Orchestra) Op. 80
This excerpt with Claudio Abbado conducting and Maurizio Pollini on Piano.

Addressing your question, I find that this captures Beethoven's Volksgeist, as Paco De Lucia or Gerardo Nunez capture their own with and in Flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 16:41:16

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

My first LP record was the "Eroica" by Toscanini and the NBC Orchstra. I bought it when I was 13, then went right out and bought the miniature score. It was an education like no other.

I only listen to the 9th once a year. I want it always to be absolutely shocking.

None of Beethoven immediately strikes me as "flamenco." I think the string quartets contain some of the wildest stuff. I love the piano sonatas, too.

I read somewhere that all musicians love Bach "because he is your friend." Much of it is amazing, but somehow you can see how it works. At least I feel like I can.

Driving home from the movie "Amadeus" I said to my wife, "I think Forman gave up and made a cartoon character out of Mozart."

"How does he strike you?"

"Almost as a god. To me his sounds are divine."

"Hmm. I have always seen him as a friend."

"A friend?"

"When I was a seven-year old piano player, I knew what he did with his hands. I felt like he was showing me what to do with mine."

Beethoven has always been One of a Kind for me. There are lots of other composers whom I love, or who impress me, some more than others, but Beethoven often just leaves me in awe.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 19:07:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

The last six months I've been listening to all the quartets in depth, there's a lot to hear on second-third and forth hearings. And still you can hear more if you keep going.

I think my favorite piece is the A major cello sonata. But I don't hear flamenco to much in Beethoven either, just wondered if it was me. I do hear the drive, like old Jerez bulerias with palmas that can crack an ear drum.

The piano works are the ones I know least about, but that is on the list to go over and over. I've been goign at the symphonies too, but I can't decide which I like most. Why decide?

I do like that big nasty d minor chord in the ninth, that should always be a shocker and shaker.

---------
Beethoven and Bach and Mozart-

Bach I listen to to calm myself- he's amazing, but not treacherous ground mentally. His mystery is deceptive, it seems so much on the surface and easy to get, but it's locked into his craftsmanship. I agree he is friendly for the most part.

Mozart, he's like going out on the town with fine company, good red wine, good conversation; elegance that has weight and substance. He cheers me up. Mozart was John Cages favorite composer. He preferred him over Beethoven. I can't underscore too much that Mozart is pleasurable, but still profound. But I don't have to dig into it to get the goods, he brings the goods to you.

Beethoven is like climbing into the Earth to explore a cave of amazing geologic structures and beauty. I can do it everyday as long as my head lamp is working and Bach is waiting at the surface. You see the regular Beethoven challenges and beauties from the path with your light. But go off the path or wander into a narrow stretch and you have to think about how to turn around and get back out. In Beethoven you find the sky underground, he turns things inside out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 19:39:49

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

The late quartets. I dont know if there´s one I like more than others.
Piano sonatas, especially things like "waldstein"
Being a violinist, of course his violin concert (one more vote for D. Oistrach)
kreutzer violin sonata is full of Beethoven power.

I´m not so much into Beetoven now as I used to be.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 19:56:10

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Amen to both the Choral Fantasy and the Violin Romance #2: I second the motion. I'm trying to think, though, of some piece where Beethoven totally surprises me, out of the blue--something I value highly in "classical" or "serious" music. I offer as a very few examples, in whole or part, the Brahms Piano Concerto #1 (first movement, especially), the Prokofiev Piano Concerto #2 (amazing throughout), D'Indy: Symphony on a French Mountain Air, even Mozart Piano Concerto #24 (the Glenn Gould reading), Ravel: Concerto for the Left Hand. The pure joy radiating from the third movement of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto #4 is enough to easily bring tears to my eyes: Wendy/Walter Carlos did a great job with this on the synthesizer way back when. Anybody else have some examples?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 14 2014 22:56:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

I think Beethoven is very much out of the blue in this late music. The Grosse Fuge, each of the late quartets has moments where you don't know what is happening next.

To me it's not always about being surprised (Hadyn's 'Surprise Symphony'? ha ha) but by how many times I can go back to a piece a get more from listening.

In Beethoven's early music the sfortzando in his symphonies are cool, he sneak attacks, but we've heard this so many times by later composers taking that road that we are not surprised by it today. Beethoven really took the 'get quiet then play hard' thing from earlier composers liek Mozart, but the developed it into a special expressive device, in his day it would have been and was progressive. After Beethoven everyone grabbed onto this and used it, especially the Romantic composers. They were all working out what Beethoven began when he got older.

Stravinsky said the Grosse Fuge was the most modern piece of music written, of course he was bragging it up, but in his day it still was very modern. If you think of Prokofiev and Stravinsky as reacasting classical ideas, which is a great part of what they did, then Beethoven figures large in how they were thinking. A lot of Stravinsky is classical in structure, but outside harmonically. Prokofiev is similar, more like follower of Mozart.

The interesting link to look at it with the Russians and the classical era is Rimky-Korsakov, he was the one they were spinning off of harmonically and getting orchestration ideas from. It's also interesting to see what Shostakovich borrows from Prokofiev. How did they put together Korsakov's late romantic harmony with Beethoven -Mozart structures? A lot of Stravinsky after the three famous ballets sounds like that to me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 0:37:03

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

The last movement of the "Tempest" piano sonata no. 17 feels like bulerías to me, fast and in 6.

3rd movement starts at 12:33

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 4:07:14

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I think I have 3/4's of all of Beethoven music. I'm trying to listen to all of it. I don't think I've heard every piece of Beethoven's yet.

You may be interested in Soheil Nasseri, a concert pianist friend of mine. One of his goals is to perform all of Beethoven's works involving piano by 2020.
http://soheilnasseri.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 8:57:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to pjn)

quote:

The last movement of the "Tempest" piano sonata no. 17 feels like bulerías to me, fast and in 6.

Oh yeah cool, I'm going to investigate that further- Reminds me, I have a tape or used to have a tape of Diego del Gastor playing Fur Elise- I think that is the only Beethoven I have by a guitarist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 12:18:57

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Quite a few of the Bagatelles work on guitar. These are short pieces for piano which B. wrote throughout his lifetime, and which contain the seeds of a lot of the motifs he used in the larger works. In my classical school days I did some and I'm sure other classical cats have as well.

A recording by Alfred Brendel of all the Bagatelles is what inspired me -- and I still love that record.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 21:14:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to pjn)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pjn

The last movement of the "Tempest" piano sonata no. 17 feels like bulerías to me, fast and in 6.

I tried but I am just not hearing it like that Pjn.

Try this Chopin for contrast in particular the section starting at two minutes.

Beethoven is to my ears holds more firmly to the classical tradition than his teacher Haydn who explored folk melody more.

Chopin was much more interested in exploring nationalistic and folkloric musical forms and preserving their original rhythmic and harmonic structures. Previously pianists and Symphonists mostly using folk themes as an excuse to explore sonata form.

Anyway that my opinion. Chopin then Scriabin, Rachmaninov and closer to home De Falla and Albeniz got the ball rolling with the incorporation and exploration of music from aural traditions into the piano and orchestral repetoires. I love Beethoven but I never heard a jot of Spain from him.

But Beethoven built a bridge from JS Bach to Wager via Liszt, CPE Bach Mozart and Cherubini and thats more than enough.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2014 23:55:45

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Anyway that my opinion. Chopin then Scriabin, Rachmaninov and closer to home De Falla and Albeniz got the ball rolling with the incorporation and exploration of music from aural traditions into the piano and orchestral repetoires.

D.

Well that's all well and good GB but what about Bocherini and Scarlatti ?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 0:31:29

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Anyway that my opinion. Chopin then Scriabin, Rachmaninov and closer to home De Falla and Albeniz got the ball rolling with the incorporation and exploration of music from aural traditions into the piano and orchestral repetoires. I love Beethoven but I never heard a jot of Spain from him.

It was Pedro Pedrell the teacher of de Falla who encouraged the use of Spanish folk as nationalist statement in "classical music" composition. The Zarzuela music popular in the 19th century helped a lot too. All the modern composers in Spain that drew on spanish folk forms for material were pretty much funneled through Pedrell as students, de Falla, who then passed the idea to the other students. de Falla also studied and lived in Paris at the fin de cicle and breathed in Debussy and Stravinsky as major influences and picked up on the folky stuff from them.

The Russians were always on top of the folk idioms as material, Glinka went to Spain, Tchaikovski used them, Mussorgsky, they all took.

--------------

Bocarini and Scarlatte' -- A sandwich and coffee?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 4:01:38

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

But Beethoven built a bridge from JS Bach to Wager via Liszt, CPE Bach Mozart and Cherubini and thats more than enough.

Beethoven what? He engineered what? More like he took Mozart and made it heavier, Bach was a guy they studied, but the style was really different in the way they voiced chords and used dynamics. Really different stuff than continuo from a hundred years earlier.

Via Liszt? He came later, Beethoven was going deaf when he was born. But what he did was set up the way for Bartok and Kodaly to document folk music in Hungary and took the first steps at throwing off Austrian influence in Hungarian music, which Bartok and Kodaly later pushed for as pro Hussar supporters.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 4:13:43

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

The last movement of the "Tempest" piano sonata no. 17 feels like bulerías to me, fast and in 6.

I agree that its a very nice sonata. But why Glen Gould? Taste is personal, and these sonatas can be played in many ways. here you have a very different version of the 3rd movement by one of my favorite Beethoven piano players, Wilhelm Kempff. He takes his time and builds up slowly with a lot of drama and beauty at the same time

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 7:41:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Gould was a weirdo, he is like Bobby Fisher the chess player. Brilliant, but super odd.

I like many other pianists and I agree with Anders about finding one you like. For Bach Dinu Lipati, more sensitive than Gould, but Gould was famous to Americans because he was one of them. Van Cliburn was better, but he lost his career early on and never got it back. Gould is like a clomping horse by comparison.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 9:39:53

guitarbuddha

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

It's good to see you are still a t1t.

Gould was Canadian.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 9:58:14

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

North American, knuckle head.

Gould was from the Amerikas, he sold lots of records there which made him famous, so most people in North America think he's the The Pianist. There was a time and still to some extent difficult in popular music stores to go to a piano category and find many other pianists recording besides those of Gould. He's from North America and is an English speaker and did not intimidate many first time classical music buyers by being European and unknown. He was vetted by popular opinion even if a person did not know anything about pianists Gould was a household name. A person who knew very little abotu classical music could buy a Gould recording for some one as a gift with confidence that they would not be questioned. He was from "Our side of the pond" therefore trustworthy to novice classical music minded North Americans.

To answer Anders question of why always Gould. In North America there are only a few classical musicians known as household names: Gould, Yo Yo Ma, Isaac Stern and Yo Mamma.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 11:12:35

guitarbuddha

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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

I see you keen insight into nationalistic tendencies extends beyond music.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 11:36:54

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I see you keen insight into nationalistic tendencies extends beyond music.

D.

Have you ever been to North America?

And you should be honest about it and admit you knew nothing of Pedro Pedrell as de Falla's teacher and influence to use Spanish folk idioms until I schooled you on it.

You can go look it up, and look up Joaquin Nin while you're at it. He was de Falla's last student who transmitted that information to my former partner who was Nin's last student. Which means I have that information direct from de Falla's line of teaching.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 11:39:01

estebanana

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Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Back to Bee-
Today I made no headway, I listened to string quartet #13 ....again....then two Japanese guys stopped by the shop, one may even come back a drink beer with me!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:05:32

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

I don't know why your attitude is so adversarial. I don't know why you think noone can see you backpedalling.

By your latest 'logic' I could assert that I am more qualified to talk about Beethoven because I am European. Which would be ludicrous.

I actually posted a joking reply to my timeline where I pointed it's arbitrary nature by mentioning Scarlatti and Bocherrini.

You sir missed the point as you so often do.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:06:42

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Don't even start with me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:23:18

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Don't even start with me.

Stephen, I just finished.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:31:36

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)

Oh where's that ignore button....

Ahh, there we go..thats better.

My apologies, if I backpedaled into anyones beer or spilled any drinks or popcorn.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2014 12:38:18