Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.
|
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners
|
You are logged in as Guest
|
|
Users viewing this topic: none
|
|
Login  | |
|
  
runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
|
 RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)
|
|
|
Stephen, now that you've somewhat tuned your question, my answer would also be "no flamenco" in Beethoven, or, except in some freak occurrence, in classical music in general. The difference IMHO is that there is almost always in classical music the urge and effort and intent to develop, over time, the themes introduced by the composer. It's a balance of intellect and emotion. They have much more time to do it, to work on developing the themes, and work them out over, say, at least 10 minutes, whereas the performer of a flamenco palo seeks to share its emotional gift quickly and directly, with little development (or much less development) within a timeframe of 3 to 10 minutes. Different goals and intentions.
One of the most flamenco utterances in rock is Janis Joplin's Ball and Chain; this is an English-language siguiriya of wrenching, compelling power. Go back to your copy of Cheap Thrills and listen to it again.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 21 2014 22:53:26
 |
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin)
|
|
|
I actually disagree with that. In flamenco there is long set up and many throwaways before some artists really lay it down.
Dancers especially have a way of building a performance, and one of the most important parts of flamenco is not the shirt ripping out od control yell, it's the silent walk in that tells of the great strength in reserve, which the artist might not even show that night.
When a dancer walks on and does marking steps, that tells you a lot about the dancer. Style, experience, control, ability to moderate through pure stillness to wild action with evenness and expression through the moment.
Or a long fiesta have a trajectory, it can't simply burn at 1000 degrees for 5 hours, it has to have pace. Singers pace themselves too, they hold back and wait, then give then hold back to set else up something up. They let the guitar work to set them up.
Classical era composition devices work differently than flamenco in that they have structures based that are like sonnets- aba aba bca- sonata forms. Flamenco has the same thing, but the forms are just different. Flamenco is a highly formalized music language, so I don't buy into the difference on the level that flamenco performers have to get in a get out fast.
And my question is still not being understood properly. It seems to be taken literally instead of more like a comparison or analogy between to two formal music types. I see flamenco as a art of power in reserve not "expressive' wild abandon, I could argue that Beethoven is far more flamenco than Janis Joplin for many reasons.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 21 2014 23:55:56
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
|
|
|
quote:
Rosalyn Tureck is no less voluntarist in her playing, but her more complex, less cellophaned performance, less easily accessible, too, give an image of Bach that is at once archaic, timeless, and sensitive without being expressionistic, analytical without being motorique.
Sorry for off topic again...but eventually it will help me appreciate beethoven, I think, if I can get the interpretations that will grab me best.
Here was a perfect example....I went and hunted for Tureck doing some of my Gould favorites.... 
Sorry, not even close to the things that grabs me with Gould. It's like saying PDL is derived from N. Ricardo....sure you can make comparisons of sorts, but when we talk about LEVEL I am hearing two different caliburs of artists. I will only point to specifics of expression...timing, and dynamics. Taste is one thing, but for me different levels of ability are another. Again, I guess I must defer to piano players opinion as I am a guitarist...but if this music where done by guitarists Gould's way is what I would aspire too...I will focus on Kempf beethoven too...
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 22 2014 14:49:04
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
|
|
|
quote:
Listen to the 3rd movement of the Tempest sonata that PJN posted and then to the Kempff that I posted... Same score, but so extremely different way of playing and feeling it. But in the end its just a matter of taste and my taste is not any better than PJN´s.
So I spent a lot of time back and forth with those two examples to compare. You are of course right about interpretation being so different...in fact it is so different it almost seems like different compositions! So we have the dilemma now of how did Beethoven really want his music played? A simple issue here...tempo. Is there an exact known tempo for this??? Anyway If I take the best of both interpretations, I am still left wanting something different here. Personally.
Kempff:
I like that it is a steady tempo...more rhythmic. The slow tempo allows me to understand better what's happening here musically/harmonically. But it's too darn slow. The thematic repetitions become monotonous pretty quick...Bach beats this type of thing as he seemed to know how to break the monotony a little better. IMO. But a quicker tempo would really help this. And I might even take liberties with omitting some phrases that repeat (gasp!! but hey, I am flamenco guy LOL) to keep this moving and interesting. Also dynamics, IMO, are pretty flat here. That tritone iv-N2-V-i is so wicked but neither player exaggerates that coolness. And you know Beethoven loved that cuz he keeps repeating it so much.
Gould:
Ok, the tempo fluctuations just simply SUCK. Ugh...awful. But in spots it really moves and I wish he would keep it going. Too much drama with that. BUT...the dynamics he has going on are VERY good IMO. Not forced and dramatic like I often hear with romantic music, but appropriate for the harmonic moves and shifts of modal color. I feel as player, he is a lot more advanced than Kempff (based on this here example) and it's not about technique only, but certainly part of it. (the ascending arps section especially reveals this...)....A good example of the cool dynamics I mean, there is that one spot it resolves to major, then suddenly goes to dark phrygian place or something on the basses, and he really brings that out where as Kempff just plays flat through it. Again wish he would bring out that N2-V-i more but overall very strong command of the music and direction of the piece. But lord those tempo shifts are just ruining the thing and make the stuff going on all vague and bland on the surface. Yawn.
I would want to hear steady tempo, pretty quick, with those interesting dynamics in there....but still compositionally I am not yet convinced he is up with Bach.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 22 2014 15:52:14
|
|
runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Ricardo)
|
|
|
|
It was Georges Clemenceau who said that war was too important to be left to the generals. Similarly, music is too important to the personal enjoyment of the listener to be left to the opinions of musicians, or critics (or anybody else, for that matter). I've found, generally, that in recorded music, whatever we hear first that piques our interest, and then becomes part of our personal musical landscape, is what sounds "right". Sometimes something strikes us as even better yet comes along, and we switch horses. But almost always our attempts to justify/rationalize/"explain" either our new or our old favorites are hollow, ex post facto, and unconvincing. Somebody above did stress tempo as an important factor, and I agree there that a sense of "proper" tempo is probably the quickest thing to lead to our explanation to ourselves on why we like (or don't like) a given performance; I know it's true in my case. But it always comes back to de gustibus non est disputandum.
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 22 2014 22:51:40
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin)
|
|
|
I was thinking this out in the shop today. I guess the core of the matter for me is that I don't see flamenco as superior or classical as superior, they are different sides of the same dollar bill.
I also don't see classical as less passionate and flamenco as an art of letting it all hang out. Each art form has away of getting at expressing something through deep and prolonged study. Even Gitanos that learn from their families decide at some point that they will distinguish themselves by studying harder than other members of the family, because that is what it takes to become an artist. Classical music is much the same.
Classical music is very passionate, and often times flamenco is not. Just because someone is wearing their passion on their sleve does not mean it is genuine. I've been to many more phoned in flamenco performances than classical. In flamenco a lot of the drama is manufactured, that artist does that act several nights a month, and sometimes, more often that many aficionados would like to admit, the act is not 100% authentic passion in the moment. Flamenco artists give the audience what they came for, and sometimes they are making themselves do it. I think it is a lot like opera singers who have to perform, do they feel that deep passion every time, or are they such consumate pros that they give a convincing performance? Not that there is anything wrong with that caliber of professionalism.
Many classical musicians are passionate underneath an exterior of repose and calm. You can feel the tension beneath. Is it really fair to box them into a world of stuffed shirts and say flamencos are so authentically expressive because some viewers want to see them as some kind of noble savage ( wish I had a better analogy) - Sure they both are in the right moment, and those are the moments they live for, but the rest of the time they are just doing their jobs no matter how they feel.
-------
From what I have understood and read about Beethoven, he was uncompromising, misunderstood, had been a jilted lover, was deaf and had strong reactions to the things in his life that he had to deal with. He wrote strong passionate music which was at times forceful for it's day. He had tender moments and moments when he called the public a bunch of cattle that did not understand his music. He wrote music you can't ignore if you are in touch with your feelings and have an awareness. Is it flamenco? Of course not. Does he share musical and personal attributes such as iconoclasm, passion, being misunderstood, wanting to engage physically with the world around him because music inspired him to do so? Yes. It all sounds like things flamencos do.
So I will retire now having had this wonderful conversation with myself. Haha. It's good to not have a failure to communicate with oneself.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 23 2014 12:47:37
|
|
Ricardo
Posts: 14804
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner)
|
|
|
quote:
Sometimes something strikes us as even better yet comes along, and we switch horses. But almost always our attempts to justify/rationalize/"explain" either our new or our old favorites are hollow, ex post facto, and unconvincing. Somebody above did stress tempo as an important factor, and I agree there that a sense of "proper" tempo is probably the quickest thing to lead to our explanation to ourselves on why we like (or don't like) a given performance; I know it's true in my case.
I agree in general, and being aware of this I deliberately try to step out of myself and be objective, especially with new music. Further I try devil advocate on things that are the typical public view, when approaching music to critic or evaluate. When it comes to tempo, I am quite sensitive. It doesn't mean however that I prefer only a certain comfy speed I am used to, rather, I am quite aware of what has to change with the music as we deliberately change or compare the same thing at different speeds. Even within just a couple BPM I can notice significant details that must be altered, for better or worse. With classical interpretations, I notice EXTREME examples, and this beethoven is a perfect case.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 23 2014 15:56:45
|
|
BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)
|
|
|
quote:
In flamenco a lot of the drama is manufactured, that artist does that act several nights a month, and sometimes, more often that many aficionados would like to admit, the act is not 100% authentic passion in the moment.
On the mark, Stephen! My flamenco instructor and good friend Paco de Malaga once told me that Manitas de Plata often would begin his solo concerts by sitting with his guitar, mute, looking off into the distance in the auditorium for maybe 15 or 20 seconds, and then would suddenly begin passionately playing a fiery piece. It was all contrived, of course, to appear as if he were waiting for inspiration to hit him, and once it did, to begin playing with passion and emotion.
I hasten to add that my comment is not meant as a judgment on Manitas de Plata's abilities as a flamenco guitarist, a topic that has been discussed on the Foro several times. Just a comment to illustrate the contrived and phoney nature of some musicians' attempts to appear to be something they think the audience expects of them. I suspect it occurs in genres other than flamenco as well.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 23 2014 16:06:16
|
|
estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Doitsujin)
|
|
|
Ken Clark? Well he was chatting on Greek art, that and Egyptian art are remote to the meaning of and intent of classical music of Beethoven's era. But I can relate them to flamenco. During Beethoven's life the only real sculptors were guys like Canova, and shortly before Berninini, right? Or there was Franz Xaver Messerschmidt - I don't bother to wiki art references in casual conversation, I remember them from my studies, but you should wiki Messerschmidt and tell me if he is "classical" or not. Messerschmidt had a few quirks, but he seems closer to Beethoven's intensity than Canova.
There are connections between classical sculture and flameoc, as long as it's ok to remain in the art analogy. The Swiss sculptor Alberto Giacometti used to comment about (in the interviews with James Lord. ) how an Egyptian sculpture or Etruscan figure can be perfectly still. - The intent is to set the persona of an earthly yet divine pharaoh into a sculptural form that creates a sense of timelessness or infinity by rendering it with a foot forward; but locked into that step for eternity so that figure of the god-man will always be stepping into the afterlife. (my explanation) - The stillness Giacometti spoke of, ironically in his vision of the form, activates it. The more still the Egyptian sculpture seems to be, the more it actually seems to move, or it telegraphs the instant before a movement which fascinates the viewer.
Giacometti was fascinated by this stillness; I think it is like a flamenco dancer in a section of solea where he or she comes to a complete stop. Mainly I like this in a woman's baile, because these days when men come to a full stop in solea they often do it in profile to the audience with a leg extended to show the beef cake of his own ass. This gives the women in the crowd a chance to turn the tables and enjoy a moment of stillness that telegraphs the male sexuality of the lines of Kenny Clarks cited discobowler. A few male dancers come to mind who give 'em a thrill, and this does fit into todays flamenco in a way I mentioned that sometimes feeling is manufactured.
When you have a moment in flamenco where a female dancer, just my male bias because I don't enjoy todays "serious" male dancers as much as I enjoy women masters, takes a still pose it can be the best thing of the whole night on stage. At least for this aficionado. The other part of a good solea baile is when the singer comes in with the second letra, and the dancer is marking and the anticipation is built that the second letra must be even better stuff than the first, which if she was good at her job totally brought you into the dance space she occupies. Usually what happens next is that she works and works to convince you and bring you more and more into her space and concentration. She builds the second letra gradually and then does a series of cortes', ( breaks) and then even though you know it is coming, hits you with a full frontal stop in the center of the stage and it takes the breath away from the entire house.
Instead of moving right away, out of the stop and full presentation of her as a human being, she lets the moment work for everyone because she and everyone else she danced for earned that few seconds of stillness that she gives up. Like the Greek or Egyptian statue with the leg advanced forward, or arms raised above her head dripping mantone, or flat open hand pulled dynamically to one side of her body she is for a couple seconds inviolable, you can't push her off that pedestal, you can't break her sculptural line. The Singer knows that and he or she freezes with the dancer and empathetically perhaps points an outstretched arm with a open palmed gesture at the dancer from the other side of the stage. They hold the tension of stillness a bit longer than you think is possible. The guitarist waits, the other dancers doing palmas lean forward and stop, straining into her pose empathetically as of they are doing it themselves. If they hold the stillness too long or move out of it the wrong way it ruins it. The dancer makes her exit from the enormous space she created with stillness and carefully marks into, or launches into the next section. Maybe to contrast the stillness some footwork.
If anyone had broken the stillness of the moment she worked to make, it would have been like Ken Clark saying the lines of the discus thrower were violated. Flamenco is classical in that sense, it shares the quality of spareness of line and the delicate natures of the difference between dynamic, aggressive, expressionistic movement and planned stillness that captures and holds space. Classical sculptures being an inert non living material go on keeping the still moment for as long as they exist in space. An excellent masterful flamenco dancer creates the same space with her body and presence, but then after she stops time for two or three or 7 breath taking seconds she is able to start the clock back up again, and that is the human magic of stillness in flamenco.
So the line in classical sculpture, stillness, timelessness- It's all abundant in flamenco, and you can throw in the slow moves and the way time stops when a matador holds a cape still, foot planted, back poised. He waits...and waits...and waits...waits longer....he hangs out there alone waiting. That is put into flamenco too. The stillness in bullfighting, it's much the same stillness in flamenco. You might even venture to say it's classic.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 23 2014 21:31:18
|
|
Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
|
|
RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
|
|
|
At this late date, I don't know the source, but here's a story about Beethoven I read in my youth. Bear in mind that I read only reliable sources. 
Beethoven was standing in the hall during the dress rehearsal for the Third Symphony in E-flat. A notable critic stood beside him. In the first movement there is a famous moment, the development section is pretty well over with, there is muttering among the winds and strings with no particular harmonic direction…what key are we in?…I dunno, what key do you think?…must be about time to bring the first theme back around for the finale…we could be in…nope theres that oboe again….a single french horn back in the underbrush says mf "e-flat, g, e-flat, b-flat" the first four notes of the main theme, then the full orchestra lands on the theme, WHAMMO! fff KEY OF E-FLAT, suckas!!
The critic turned to Beethoven, and said in sympathy, "Blockhead horn player, coming in a bar too soon."
Beethoven knocked him down, and strode off in a rage.
RNJ
|
|
|
|
REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Mar. 23 2014 23:22:02
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts
|
|
|
Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET |
0.1054688 secs.
|
Printable Version
