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RE: Beethoven listeners
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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 RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)
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Stephen's remembered impressions of Glenn Gould's place in the American musical consciousness are quite different from mine. The overwhelming impression that Glenn Gould made, as Stephen does hint at, was as a total weirdo, very probably a hopeless neurotic. There he was, with the scarf, the sweaters, the coats, his nose just about at the level of the keyboard on his way too low seat, practically drooling, jaw working as, trancelike, he "rode the music" (to quote the Airplane). Trustworthy? Just like them (other Americans/Canadians)? I think not.
Anyhow, I always found plenty of other pianists, North American, European, whatever; violinists, cellists, whatnot, in the music store racks, besides the very few that Stephen references. Names available upon request.
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Date Mar. 16 2014 14:46:04
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runner
Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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GB, you are so right to trust your ears and your taste. We all can tell, I think, when we sense that a musician really "gets" the piece he/she is performing. One of my very, very favorite piano concertos is Alan Hovhaness' Lousadzak, Concerto #1. There are only a tiny handful of recordings of this, and only the pianist Maro Ajemian gets the piece right, whereas the most recent recording, with Keith Jarrett, is hopeless; almost a trial to listen to. In my view, nobody ever did the Sibelius violin concerto like Heifetz; nobody did the Ravel Left Hand like Samson Francois; nobody did the Prokofiev 3rd like Van Cliburn. Some of this, maybe a lot of this, is just who we hear first doing a piece. But now and again we hear somebody else, and our eyes (ears) are opened........
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Date Mar. 17 2014 13:30:07
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
Stephen's remembered impressions of Glenn Gould's place in the American musical consciousness are quite different from mine. The overwhelming impression that Glenn Gould made, as Stephen does hint at, was as a total weirdo, very probably a hopeless neurotic. There he was, with the scarf, the sweaters, the coats, his nose just about at the level of the keyboard on his way too low seat, practically drooling, jaw working as, trancelike, he "rode the music" (to quote the Airplane). Trustworthy? Just like them (other Americans/Canadians)? I think not.
Anyhow, I always found plenty of other pianists, North American, European, whatever; violinists, cellists, whatnot, in the music store racks, besides the very few that Stephen references. Names available upon request.
My impression of Gould is hearing the typical idiotic "he plays with good technique but no feeling..." yada yada f ing yada. I listened as a teen to his well tempered stuff, and well, he was one of few classical piano players with a groove going on. Many years later, I saw his weirdo 33 short films movie, and sure he was a weird nerd, but in a cool way it was ok. I am not a piano player so I defer to the better experienced with subtle nuances of interpretation, but he was freaking good.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 18 2014 14:13:58
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
The problem is with the lower trapezius between the scapula, my lower back is fine. It's upper back between the shoulders that is the trouble. I started doing an excersise called the 'Y'- you lift both arms over head, palms facing ears, and move arms back flexing the lower traps. It seems to help, but it's been about 5 weeks since I began and it could take several months to heal. If you have beethovenistic ideas about more therapies for that muscle set let me know. They are difficult to isolate.
It is important to have isometric tensioning, so that there will be efficiently provoked growth of new muscular cells.
Try what I have drawn as exercise 16 and 18. ( Alternating. One day ex. 16, next day 18, then again 16 etc.)
What you see is the starting position with in the pictures the left arm being stretched into position. Stretch to the limit by levering with the right arm. Then contract as if you wanted to return to idle position, however do not allow movement when contracting / relaxing. Contract intensely * 6 or better even 8 seconds. Then relax, again without any change of position ( not even in micro terms).
When relaxed again** you will find you can stretch some more before next contraction. Rinse, repeat. ( All while maintaining posture, naturally.)
Make 3 turns.
After third time watch out to let return to idle only gently / evenly, hence not abruptly!
You will feel apparatus targeted which you might have not sensed existing. Enjoy the new feeling and keep limbs and back relaxed for a little while before continuing with daily procedures.
Ruphus
PS: * Be cautious at the first times. Stretch far enough to where there is no power left to produce much force, yet during contraction staying within endurable range. On day ~ 3 or 4 of the individual exercise you will have found out where the personal limit is for challenging ( and acute somewhat hurting ) yet endurable contraction.
** Make sure to have really let go / no subtle resistance against the stretching, before stretching further. ( If you don´t one might be staying within potent muscular range, which is not what we want. We want to operate from the weak range / the outer limit of the muscles.) You will find to be operating in the weak range when your right arm has no big job with arresting the left one.
PS2:
A it can´t be seen that well, in drawing no. 18 the left arms ellbow is rested in right arms crook - and then levered to the left side.
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Date Mar. 18 2014 15:29:14
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pjn
Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Let me clarify that I didn't "choose" the Gould version for any other reason than it was the first one that popped up on Youtube at a tempo appropriate for the the thread -- which was about flamenco feel in classical music, not about our favorite Beethoven interpreters.
But naturally a couple of you had to immediately change the subject so you could start the usual pissing contest --
OK man, let's piss -- I have studied classical music for 55 years, have a Master's degree, have taught at the college level, am a published music book author and composer. I probably have played with more classical musicians than most of you -- I don't think there are too many famous pianists you could spring on me, and the Music Appreciation 101 tidbits don't impress me that much.
As for Glenn Gould, since you brought him up -- he wasn't that much crazier than many musicians of his stature, just a hell of a lot more interesting and well rounded. He was an incredibly prolific essayist and music journalist, created many documentaries of all sorts for Canadian television, recorded the music of every period from Bach up to Schoenberg's guys (yes, in his own inimitable, which means unique, sometimes goofy, way). Never played it safe; never gave the people easy pleasure for money (what's the name of that profession again?); never compromised himself; gave up live concertizing because he would have had to do these things.
When we belittle artists whose excrement we're not worthy of sniffing it's insulting and we don't come off too well.
Maybe I should post again and say how I really feel about it.
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Date Mar. 21 2014 2:49:21
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to pjn)
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One sidelight on the Gould business, from the Wikipedia article on Rosalyn Tureck:
"In a CBC radio special on Glenn Gould,[8][9] the host told Tureck that Gould cited her as his "only" influence. She responded by saying she knew that she was an influence and that it was very kind of him to say so."
I heard Tureck in person well before I heard Gould on recording, so Gould didn't seem all that revolutionary to me. Gould was much better known, for a variety of good reasons, but not all knowledgeable writers preferred him to Tureck. For those unfamiliar with it, Gramophone is unusual among magazines of reviews, in that it requires its reviewers actually to have a musical education--no implication that anyone here is lacking one:
"Gramophone, January 1999
Famous and unknown, the pianist eclipsed by Glenn Gould - Alain Lompech
Rosalyn Tureck is no unknown discovered by a record company. This artist is one of the most accomplished musicians of this century. She has never ceased to play, be heard, admired, discussed, and copied, even, without ever occupying the forefront of the stage. She says so herself, if it hadn't been for a small American publisher, her performances would be out of reach today. In other times, however, Tureck recorded occasionally for several major firms, but her misfortune, our misfortune, rather, went by the name of Glenn Gould. The Canadian's playing was undoubtedly derived from that of his lady colleague, but in the consciousness of music lovers everywhere, it will have left him only a folding seat.
The great commercial advantage in Gould's Bach technique resides in its unequivocal, simplistic character. That clear piano, that clarified, voluble polyphony was ideally ready-to-listen-to in the post-war years. So they made Gould the Bach performer par excellence. This abuse of a dominant position should be challenged: Gould only offers one of the oppositions in performance, for he has chosen to play descriptively, systematically, using a power of seduction that has put more than one listener to sleep.
Rosalyn Tureck is no less voluntarist in her playing, but her more complex, less cellophaned performance, less easily accessible, too, give an image of Bach that is at once archaic, timeless, and sensitive without being expressionistic, analytical without being motorique. Owing nothing to the harpsichord, and taking advantage of all the possibilities offered by the piano - an instrument that is reinvented each time by the person touching it - Rosalyn Tureck is an artist without being an egocentric. Her great quality is to impose a perception of musical time that is incredibly different from one individual to another, by succeeding in recreating Bach's music in all its complexity. The contemplative will delight in the sumptuous sound of her performances, the keenest ears will excitedly follow the path taken by the Kantor's scholarly contrapuntal constructions and lovers of the piano will get drunk on the infinite variety of attacks and colours in such a venerable technique."
And here's the scoop on Lompech:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Lompech
But as always chacun à son goût.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 21 2014 4:02:52
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Beethoven listeners (in reply to runner)
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Interesting posts PNJ and Jernigan-
I'm going to restate the original questions now, not because I did not like the posts, but I feel we spun off in a direction I was not aiming for. Now that is fine, but I think it really go toff target, I like wandering threads, but lets wander a little more closely.
My foremost question is we take Beethoven for granted? I asked that because I really want to know peoples opinions. Some said: Oh I don't listen to him much anymore, but that was not what I was getting at.
My question has to do with the nature of how we grow and move on to new types of music, and then revisit music later in life. For me I've found that I did not even listen to everything Beethoven wrote, but had not paid much attention to Beethoven for many years.
Original questions:
Do we take Beethoven for granted? How many Beethoven's have there been?
I've always specialized in listening to a few of Beethoven's works, when I say a few I mean about maybe 20 or 25. There is so much more and I have been taking some in.
What is your favorite Beethoven and what do you want to listen to next? Which Beethoven feels most flamenco to you? If you know what I mean, not literally, but in spirit.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Mar. 21 2014 4:45:45
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