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I think this is a necessary post in the off topic section. The situation has reduced me to tears (perhaps other events recently). I can see so many parallels with the breakup of Yugoslavia and specifically in my home Bosnia. Aside the threat to Ukrainians living in Crimea and Ukraine, there is a population of Tartars in Crimea, which I fear would not do so well in a possible conflict. The world never fails to disappoint.
Larisa's father was Russian, her mother Ukrainian, both gone now. Her mother's parents were prosperous Ukrainian kulaks. They escaped Stalin's genocide by selling everything they had to buy food. As a young girl Larisa lived for a while in Siberia, but Kiev is really her home town.
Yesterday she asked me what I thought would happen.
I said I thought Russia would take Crimea, one way or another, and there was a good chance they would try to split off the eastern part of Ukraine. The industrial heart of Ukraine is in the Donetsk basin, developed by the Soviets.
She agreed. She said, "If you live next to him, you don't go up against the Bear."
Very sad, no help will come if things escalate, once again Imperialism is still ripe in the 21st' Century. I personally care little for romantic, animalistic ideals such as nationalism, but I care most for life, so if somehow they can escape this situation without a conflict I think it would be best, however I also do not want Russia repeating this situation elsewhere.
Best thing possibly (though I know little of the regions and the demographic statistics) is a compromise the Russians take the areas where there are ethnic Russians living however as from experience in Bosnia, they will try and take the rest in the next century.
I had always thought of the Ukraine as a valuable part of the USSR and was surprised Russia let it go in the first place. It is sad, the world rolls on...
I don't want to get too political but referring to Ukraine as The Ukraine implies that it is a region and not a country but all that is academic, there are people living there, names and history are unimportant in the context of life.
Not sure what you're getting at, but sorry if I have given offense. A lot of times when power and the "commanding heights" are at stake, everything else gets trampled.
First time that I agree with Putin. This time I think he is right. This has been another western instigation. ( Just consider the sudden intensification / apparently organized towards escalation from the get go.) Following the usual concept of incorporating countries for to cream off the filet parts and then leave the people behind robbed.
Further it is only understandable that Russia can´t allow Nato missiles within one minute distance to its capitol. Everyone knew this already when the firing up of the rebellion began.
And while Yanukovich was far from what you´d wish for democratic leader ship, the now flattered Timoshenko is exactly to the taste of western instigators. There to sell out the countries resources while filling her own bank account.
Just look how this person shamelessly applies for a position again. Over a billion bucks that she branched off for herself while misusing people´s hope under the "Orange Revolution" has not been enough yet, she want´s to add some more on top. All very wellcome to her allies for whom Timoshenko´s shares will be only dropped crumbs of the cake.
The people however will be seeing as much from their country´s mineral resources outcome like the little people in Russia or the other "freed" east European countries, which is exactly nada. Instead they have seen explosively inflated pricings with salaries limping far behind.
There is nothing as dreaded and combated by western establishment like any nearly democratic condition. Because people benefitting of such would be an example for the world to finally get rid of the outrageous depriving everywhere.
BTW; the number of billionaires, once less than a handful, then some 400, is now up to over 1600.
Anyone thinking Ukraine was awaiting democracy when joining the EU? Think again and look around.
Ruphus what you have written makes no sense sorry. I'm not offending anyone especially not you Miguel I was only pointing something out that has been pointed out to me.
The Tymoshenko situation is controversial and little facts are known, with both sides as biased as each other.
This is just another example of Imperialism (from both sides). However I think Ukraine is better off with Tymoshenko, and the EU and if they don't like it they can organise another "military coup" and get rid of her.
The Tymoshenko situation is controversial and little facts are known, with both sides as biased as each other.
Huh?
The world knows that she owned hardly anything. She was of the little people and thus after all attracted the peoples´ hope. The fortune she allocated to herself ( if you don´t know about it why not inform yourself) and what she in the same time made of people´s hope shows very clearly what type of personality she presents.
You may say it makes no sense, but she would fit perfectly into EU parliament.
Right now Putin is saying, to quote a great American traditional song, "Crimea River" -
Look Russia wants the area because it is the the only warm water port that they have which does not freeze up in winter. Is that fair to those who live there? No. Is it right? No. It that what Russia will force on the people? Yes.
Listen to the Shostakovich for solace, he understood. Beyond that what matters?
Exactly Esteban, Russia cannot lose in this situation. What Ruphus is saying has truth but there are more important things at stake from my perspective.
I don't like to pretend what I know is the truth, but I'm pretty sure the Russian's were involved with the Tymoshenko affair.
There is no evidence that the upheavals in Ukraine were "Western instigated." While Ukraine no doubt would be welcomed by the West, the West is not responsible for Russia's hold on the country, nor is it responsible for the Ukrainians' deposing of the Russian puppet Yanukovich. While I agree that Tymoshenko was corrupt, she was no more corrupt than was Yanukovich. And all the corruption and "robbing" of the people of Russia, Eastern Europe, and Ukraine is a product of the home-grown oligarchic "mafias" that have flourished in those countries since the dissolution of the Soviet Union. If you want evidence, just look at the coterie surrounding Putin. To suggest the "West" is behind it all is to willfully ignore the reality and evidence that have been playing out right before our eyes during the past 20 years.
Regarding the current situation, there are a few things I think important to consider. Russia does have deep, historic links to Ukraine. That does not justify Russian hegemony over Ukraine, but I do think it needs to be understood that the very beginning of the Russian state was Kievan Rus' (centered in what is now Kiev) during the 9th to the 13th centuries. After the Mongols conquered Kievan Rus' in 1240, the center of the fledgling Russian state was centered on the Grand Duchy of Moscow, from which it expanded into Greater Russia.
The Crimea, formerly a Khanate, was conquered by Russia in its drive to the South and had been Russian ever since, until Kruschchev ceded it to Ukraine in 1954. For more than 200 years, Russia has based a fleet in the Crimea, and today the Black Sea Fleet is based there. So Russia does have tangible strategic interests in maintaining a certain "protected" status over those elements of the Crimea important for the maintenance of its naval, military, and security assets.
One last note on Ukraine. The divide among Ukrainians is more than just "Russophiles" and "Westerners." The country is religiously divided as well. The eastern part is predominantly Eastern Orthodox. The Western part is Uniate, i.e. they recognize the Pope and the Vatican as supreme, but practice a form of worship that includes many of the Eastern Orthodox rituals.
My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that Putin will back off a bit, but not entirely. Putin is not Stalin, and he will not want to burn Russia's bridges to the West in spite of his obsession with "Great Russia." I think he will come to terms with a government in Kiev that will allow Russia to operate with a lot of autonomy in Crimea to secure its naval, military, and security interests; but Russia will not formally take the Crimea back. And I do not think that Putin will split off the eastern part of Ukraine. Moreover, the West should back off a bit on the encouragement of EU and NATO membership for Ukraine, at least for the foreseeable future.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
The first paragraph shows your preserved amnesia on who lurked in Gorbatchov with promisses as comming industrial chief ( personal wealth), who after Mohr´s done his work / Mohr may go dropping Gorbi switched to Yelzin to finally have the ways pathed for the mafia you mention. With Yelzin electing Putin as successor at guaranteed immunity of himself in view of the Yelzin family´s own embezzlements and fleecings.
The last paragraph in contrast is a pragmatic suggestion one can well agree with. Me can at least.
- If it won´t roughly be arranged along that line the Middle East will go to hell. And not to think of the triggers, and the tensions already in Far East ...
All this crap would not be necessary in post Cold War times if only the rampant enrichment of a few could ever sense a state of having had enough. But no such is in sight and it is so god damn pathological.
It's so complicated that I'm afraid the true motives behind this "revolution" and russia's attempt to reclaim crimea(It was given away willingly in the fifties ) will remain for us in shade like almost always when it comes to big conflicts. You can claim what you want but this is my opinion. I think both russians and the revolutionists are wrong here. Couldn't they just waited until early elections in may? All this is ridiculous, starting from simple protests about people wanting to join EU. Now finnish people among others are starting to be in debt even more. It's alot money they are loaning, alot to pay even for a single EU citizen. Politics are sH.t and I think there's no good and honest politics in general(few exceptions though like uruguays president), simply proper people very rarely have interest in getting into the mess called politics
EDIT: Actually this crisis reminds me of the sh-t that happened in georgia, dig up on that subject and you'll see some really horrible things happening on who attacked who and what was america's role in the attack. All the media is always against putin(I'm not fan of his myself) but I must give him credit on knowing politics and handling the last crisis well(the georgian one). It's complicated that's why I don't like to talk politics, nothing is what it seems to be.
simply proper people very rarely have interest in getting into the mess called politics
Commonly they won´t have a chance of passing through established elective routes to start with. And should they manage still for some reason, a faith like of Gandhi, Mossadegh or Palme may be awaiting them. -
From a German news page:
quote:
Tallinn (AFP) Ein von Unbekannten veröffentlichtes Telefonat der EU-Außenbeauftragten Catherine Ashton mit dem estnischen Außenminister Urmas Paet bringt die neue Führung der Ukraine in Bedrängnis. In dem Gespräch vom 26. Februar deutet Paet an, dass womöglich auch die damalige Opposition für das Blutbad in Kiew wenige Tage zuvor verantwortlich sein könnte - und nicht der inzwischen abgesetzte damalige Präsident Viktor Janukowitsch. Die Echtheit des Telefonmitschnitts wurde von der estnischen Regierung inzwischen bestätigt.
Roughly meaning: "A phone call published by unknown source between EU delegate Catherine Ashton and the Esthonian minister of foreign affairs Urmas Paet compromises the new leadership of the Ukraine. In the conversation from February 26th Paet indicates that eventually the opposition forces could be guilty for the bloodshed in Kiew few days before; and hence not the meanwhile deposed president Yanukovich. The authencity of the phone call track has been confirmed by the Esthonian goverment in the meantime."
If it weren´t about what we call "wolves in sheep coats" in German, the story would probably be happening on another planet.
Tell you, much of the industrial destruction out there has been scheduled by EU´s white collar crime, from where you would instead expect humane policies. The agendas in Brussels are not those of the people, neither in their interest. It is a huge vacuum machine, there to suck off values for privilegeds. People like from GB who are so vary against that Cyclop are being just right.
That theater should be unsolved and replaced by actual representatives of the European people.
Here's another work, written in the Crimea where DS had a house. Many people of learning and money in St. Petersburg or Moscow kept a place there. It shows how intertwined Russia and Ukraine are, even though they are different. It's like Ukraine is the Florida of Russia, or the Tenerife...someplace to slip away where you have fond memories.
And if the fond memories include oil & gas pipelines, vegetables and sun, well then who wants to give that up, especially if you have a few gun yachts parked there. West influence? Nope, historical comfort zone, commercial investment. Need to protect.
Anyway, this piece is very good though often over looked. The first cello concerto tends to overshadow it because it is such a ball buster, but the the second is more introspective, less marchy, more languid. But languid in a tense way.
Putin...yeah it's his fault, if he were a novelist he would write one called Crimea and Punishment. Shostakovich never passed the buck onto the West as the enemy, he had enough enemies to write about at home. The USSR actually wanted him to leave, they were ready to give him a pass out of the country, but he remained. So it interests me that he would go to his Crimean escape and write these pieces.
Tallinn (AFP) Ein von Unbekannten veröffentlichtes Telefonat der EU-Außenbeauftragten Catherine Ashton mit dem estnischen Außenminister Urmas Paet bringt die neue Führung der Ukraine in Bedrängnis. In dem Gespräch vom 26. Februar deutet Paet an, dass womöglich auch die damalige Opposition für das Blutbad in Kiew wenige Tage zuvor verantwortlich sein könnte - und nicht der inzwischen abgesetzte damalige Präsident Viktor Janukowitsch. Die Echtheit des Telefonmitschnitts wurde von der estnischen Regierung inzwischen bestätigt.
Roughly meaning: "A phone call published by unknown source between EU delegate Catherine Ashton and the Esthonian minister of foreign affairs Urmas Paet compromises the new leadership of the Ukraine. In the conversation from February 26th Paet indicates that eventually the opposition forces could be guilty for the bloodshed in Kiew few days before; and hence not the meanwhile deposed president Yanukovich. The authencity of the phone call track has been confirmed by the Esthonian goverment in the meantime."
if this is true then it's definately very similar to the georgian crisis. Anyhow it is I think there's always messed up people doing messed up things when it comes to politics. And the EU and american politicians are just as bad as the politicians in ukraine or russia, therefore I'll choose to ignore this crisis until it's over with war or crimea as russia once again. Personally I consider especially the current opposition politicians just as bad as the ones before in ukraine, especially when they weren't voted into their places but chosen by corrupt politicians, and now they're already making big decisions, couldn't they just make new elections in like couple weeks instead of may? Things would be way more clear then. Anyway it's easy to blame russia and putin but there's much more crappy parties with crappy goals, but what's new in that as it's politics? The point is always to get more money to the politicians pockets.
Let's not forget that the reason why there are more of those with a Russian background in Crimea in the first place is because Stalin kicked the Tartars out and repopulated the area with Russians. Tartars didn't return until the 1980s at the earliest (or at least a generation later).
And the gas fields are in the east (most of them anyway).
Color me as not convinced that Russia will leave any time soon. Hello Cyprus anyone?
You're treading in thin ice Burns, these fellas don't like simple artists talking about politics as they have all the tricky angles figured out. Best to make oblique references and include artistic examples, that way you can claim that art transcends politics and still look like a decent guy.
I was thinking Alexander Borodin next, what you got?
The issue seems to be: can the west sanctions induce Putin to back off. But further: what is in it for the west? Ukraine is 15b in the hole. Why should the west which has more than enough on it's plate in the Euro zone care about the Ukraine? Gas fields? There are humanistic issues I grant but it seems to be geopolitics for it's own sake.
The issue seems to be: can the west sanctions induce Putin to back off. But further: what is in it for the west? Ukraine is 15b in the hole. Why should the west which has more than enough on it's plate in the Euro zone care about the Ukraine? Gas fields? There are humanistic issues I grant but it seems to be geopolitics for it's own sake.
Agricultural fields for one, also at least americans would benefit from russia having one less ally.
My guess would be that after the so called "illegal vote" about crimea joining russia will be complete it will join russia and that's about the end of this crimea crisis, unless of course there will be struggle from the ukrainian side to give it away.
LONDON, March 7 (Reuters) - Ukrainian plans for expanding Black Sea natural gas output have been thrown into doubt by Russia's seizure of Crimea, a region linked to most of Ukraine's offshore developments. Ukraine's Black Sea gas ambitions seen at risk over Crimea Almost all fields connected to Crimea
And Tele is right about agriculture. Agrarian ground together with sweet water ( with the soil probably turning out even before water) will be THE assets of the future. And international industries have since years now already started buying it off ( like great plains in eastern Europe), as the most reliable and profitable long term investment of all.
It will outlast even mineral resources which the Ukraine has plenty of ( largest hard coal deposit in the world!) This country is an unexplored gem. The tumult there ain´t for nothing.
It´s about substantial amounts of bucks, rubles, pesetas or how you´d call it.
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