Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Internet sometimes so lacking basic info   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: [1] 2 3 4    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

Internet sometimes so lacking basic info 

I am seeking for suggestions of how to appease dogs and can´t find anything related.
Sometimes it appears as if the internet was not the giant network it ought to be.

I have a very critical situation here with 4 big dogs in a much too small place and countless passerbies who by culture love covering their ****ted pans and envy with pestering the animals from behind the fence.

So far I have been able to solve conflicts between the males by separating them and reuniting them only minutes after. But now that they reached the age of two years things seem to develop more critical.

I had to separate them twice today with them now biting each other stronger than before ( causing quite some wounds within only seconds that it took me to come running ).

With the second fight occuring I suspect that their rivalry superceeds their respect for my intention to have them stay friends. Probably now enhanced throug the fact that the females are not far from getting into heat.


The situation has always been desperate with the scum interfering all the time etc. but now it appears as if I would have to let euthanasize a pair of them unless a host could be finally found. However, chances of locally finding someone who´d keep them at conditions better than death are minimal.
This whole crap is tearing me apart from inside.

Anyway, for now I would be so thankful for any useful suggestion of how to reunite the males, but weirdly can´t find anything on the internet.

Isn´t it that such a question would be dealt with thousands of times in an internet that was as large and frequented like you´d think it is?
If this be not from limited or mirrored access then I am puzzled.

Could it be that the internet is already a bonsai version worldwide?

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 14:26:14
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3524
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Sorry to hear that, hombre. But there's lot's of stuff out there. Another idea, find some dog trainers and consult with them online. Might delay your Kauri guitar a little, but would be worth it :)

http://dogcare.dailypuppy.com/two-male-dogs-living-same-house-not-fight-1939.html

http://ottawavalleydogwhisperer.blogspot.com/2011/11/how-to-stop-your-dogs-from-fighting.html

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/many.txt

http://pets.thenest.com/two-male-dogs-living-same-house-not-fight-6674.html

_____________________________

Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ


Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 15:19:08
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Its pretty basic stuff Ruphus.
*Built up energy because they might not get enough exercise and lack challenges (Do you walk your dogs outside their fence?)
*Are they neutered?
*Living fenced in makes the outside world very interesting.
*Lack of exercise, to much testerone and an intriging outside world that you cant reach gives dogs stress and the easyests way to deal with that in dog world is fight and it normally escalates into something ugly .
If to this you add a poor leadership (you?) serious problems might happen. (Are you controlling the situation?)

Since they are 2 years old, neutering most probably wont help anymore. You´ll probably have to seperate them always or really start working with them, spend time, energy and lots of dedication, showing that you are the boss and that they behave the way you want them to do. It can be done. Also without using force.

90% of dog problems are caused by the owner. Not by the dogs themselves or the outside world.
There are plenty of very good books about the issue but it takes time to read them. I´ve read a lot of them over the years. The internet is as you suggest a complicated source for info and very easily you will fall into the evergoing battle between the 2 major idealistic ways of treating with the problems you describe. (packleader versus possitive training. Cesar Millán versus Victoria Stillwell. Real Madrid versus Barcelona. USA versus CCCP. )

Basically the internet sucks. Can you imagine wanting to know which bracing system is the best for flamenco guitars and then consulting the Lutherie section of the foroflamenco?

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 16:25:13
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Before mentioning my shortcomings I want to point out that actually I think to have mastered an extreme situation rather well.

Keep in mind that local mentality deems animals as kind of guilty / nuisant creatures and dogs especially as unholy and filthy. Correspondingly to this example there also is ion place in general several lack of intellectual pillars like sobriety, logic, empathetic skills; not to mention advanced achievements like permanent common denominator and fairness.


In the aftermath of two years ago shooing away people from a stray litter, not allowing them to pick up puppies to either make poor sods of them for some days before perishing, or straight torturing to death ( as well as having retrieved two puppies from the hands of a construction workers´ crew within 20 minutes or so after abbduction) I might have compromised a false understanding of pride, with now many dumbs trying to take revanche. ( Though you would have no chance of keeping dogs in sight without inviting intruders anyway. - The common way of dog keeping is the looked-away style. Usually in backyards not front yards. If people can see them, they will molest.)

From there my dogs have experienced men as tirelssly vicious creatures that will take advantage of being safe behind fence and will jump up to the border, whisper and shout, throw stones, cramps and nails and poison bait.
( And at a couple of evenings with my absence, when the puppies must have been 6 or 8 weeks of age probably engaged pepper spray or teaser at the gate, with me finding the pack cramped into a corner and shivering of fear. - One of them still badly shivering if she can´t hide away from strangers.)

And before I took them on board, again at my absence, they had experience with people trying to get them out of a hideaway in a channel pipe by full power throwing river stones of the size of grapefruits and larger on them.

For more than a first year in my yard the dogs had intruder visits of up to 30 per day, meanwhile down to an average of maybe 3 or so daily.

What do you think such a situation would yield in terms of displacement activity / attacking each other out of frustration about the constantly untouched offenders?

Anyone here who thinks he could manage the keeping of a pack under such circumstances without them having torn each other into pieces long since?

I believe to have gotten away outstandingly well with the situation to date with "only a handful" of fights between the males and a higher number of attacks among the females with however less injury, because of the beta female surrendering.

The realtively very little number of escalations, because of them caring extremely / highly respecting my wishes.
-

Could I be better still?
Certainly.
I am totally ***** up. Some of you know what puts me down with the daily news, which gets only topped by the stubborn and deliberate illiteracy of retarded cultures.

In this case you see nacker families from grands to small children, with the parents not yet conveying social basics and even accompanying their offspring while it throws stones around or picks defenseless creatures to torture. You really would not believe it.

( Last time I´ve been running after a hoard of little ogres stuffed with squarred timbers trying to catch a stray dog was exactly Wednesday. - The dog managed to escape by itself. - And I want to point out one thing with this one case: While I was shouting to leave it alone the kids would respond addressing me with "But uncle ..." Hence these were not even being rude. Thus, considering tormenting as only legit action / not even having a clue about the wrong-being of such pastime. Imagine the overall consensus behind such up-bringing.)

Back to the pack: They do see me doing alright much of the time, because when coming down to them I will cheer up seeing them.
Only sometimes do they see me harsh, for instance when they mark at the gate to defend against molesters. They will all in all respect my wish still, but after some days just can´t withstand the provocation and pee again.

And me in such case will show annoyed despite knowing better. Because emotionally I am only a shadow of my sane self anymore.

These dogs have shown the utmost of going out of their way and trying to please me. They love me like nuts.

And I might be forced to let two of them killed in the coming days.
I am plain desperate.
-

Thank you for the links ( half of them blocked from here / needed VPN)! It has been nice to be reminded of some basics, but there was no new details for me, except of the suggestion of how to proceed when walking them as appeasement. ( Valuable enough.)
-

My succes on keeping them calm must have mainly be based on my keeping cool and conveying peace. But after todays fights I am not certain anymore whether I can keep up that cool-bloodedness.
In fact I feel my heart pounding while thinking of how to proceed tonight.
So at a loss.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 18:53:16
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus
You only rage. You dont say anything about how the dogs live. I pointed out several things that EVERY dogtrainer, whisperer, behavior therapist, never mind method, would look at.
exercise, stress, testerone (if they have balls) etc.
I actually try to help you. And I can advice you some books to read. I dont think you´ll find a fast solution on the internet. I know the dog-internet relations pretty well and they are very confusing.

Your rage is only pointed against where you live and the people living there. Thats the same old blues and I can only say what I´ve said before: Get away as fast as possible. You´re hurting yourself and NOTHING is worth that. You may end up twisting your mental and emotional state completely.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 19:47:01
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

How they live:
I used to walk them despite the risk ( and idiots coming from other side of the road for to almost brush you with their cars), until been warned of new decrees against dogs in public with vice squads more intensively after dog owners.

Now all the dogs have seen since maybe 8 months or so is the yard.
I engage them with basic tasks and retrieving the ball. But admittedly much too scarcely. Specially now with the discomfort of standing around in the cold, I must admit.
( I am cold, for with named style of smart-being, houses are being built with single thin bricks. Not enough, built up on their slim side. With the effect of 11 really hot radiators on the upper floor yet temperatures inside staying around 17° in the afternoon and 15°C or less after dawn.)
Still, I spend at least 1,5 hours with the pack in the afternoon.

The females are sterilized, the males are intact.

Another fault I must admit is the sensation of pity that I have for them. Most of the time I will not allow it coming up in their presence, but every other time it just happens. ( Like today. Boy, ...)
A bad thing, as they detect my emotional state immediately.

Having said that, they are vastly in good mood, fooling around and cheerful almost all of the time ( except of when reacting to intruders, naturally).
Also the males are quite brotherly with each other. The past six months been harmonic, with now 3 weeks or so that the alpha will check his brother frequently. Probably for females heat coming up.
-

My peace of mind is crushed already.
Devastating to see how customs / living style can be blatantly erroneously, yet without a sensing of its contradiction in life. How blind can you be against empirics before your eyes? And over and over again, through generations.

There is a state of mind that has no tradition of sober evaluation / surrender to reality, and I had some not so subtle signal already sent to me through treated aquaintance weeks ago. I must shut up finally. And I really decided to.

*deleted*

Ruphus

PS:
Days ago George Clooney replied to the question of what could be worth to risk one´s life, that he would be willing to sacrifice quite some for his dog.
Only good that he is far away from kaputt standards.
From the engagements I heard of his, he must be a really fine guy.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 21:32:22
 
Leñador

Posts: 5235
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

I'm sorry about your dilemma.
I don't know how big your yard is but if it's average size that is not big enough to exercise a dog...... If they are mostly obedient you are lucky you're getting that much. Anders is spot on, all negative behavior is due to lack of exercise or sexual energy, a lot of times out here it's lack of leadership but I doubt that's the case for you, that seems to be more of an American problem. People out here treat there dogs like people and it makes me sick. It makes the dog sick too, mentally.

I grew up with dogs and have trained many over the years. I wish I could have one now but I just can't. Too busy to give it the attention and exercise it needs, it would be unfair. I love dumb dogs, they train easy and are just lovable. I fostered a really smart dog for about 8 months and he was a sneaky lil bastard.

EDIT:
Actually, sometimes illness can be cause of bad/odd behaviors..........

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 21:51:10
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

I am rather underestimating them. They really surprise with incredible intelligence.
Only the alpha male is relatively slow, because he and his sister ( whom I had given away erringly / had them returned from new owners after 5 hours) were returned to me in close held garbage bags. ( `Fine´ people not wanting to spoil their miserable car with unholy creatures.)
When opend the bag with the male he was already too weak to get up, during the suffocating he will have lost some of his brain cells. ( The sister had freed herself and ran away / returned next day.)

Yet, he still is very sensitive. Only too trusting to people.
I suspect him to carry genetics of ancient war dogs used by local empires. A fighter without surrender and in the same time totally calm with humans. ( I am sure he wouldn´t attack molesters if he could, unless he´d see me under attack. - The pack are all being overly protective about me. Noone must move too suddenly when vis-à-vis me. Not even old chaps.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 22:08:35
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Leñador

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

EDIT:
Actually, sometimes illness can be cause of bad/odd behaviors..........


People are throwing in nasty stuff relatively regularly.
Apparently everytime when I find remains of plastic bags without wind that could have blown in garbage.

Last time was two nights ago. This time with tracks in the fresh snow. Well showing how someone came on the pavement into close distance for throwing stuff over the high fence then directly returning.
Looked like prints of female shoes besides.
Female of this mentality show to be just as aggressive like males, often times even more. ( Liking to steer up their husbands.)
It completely destroys anything of potential female attraction, just like the doctrine requests.

Anyway, first poison attack almost killed all of them ( it killed three of the four siblings that had remained outside). I don´t know what the other insertions may have been.
First four or so times I used to call the vet in the middle of the night / feed them lots of milk, etc. Injected them stuff the vet recommended, and ran crazy for about 24 hours.
Now it´s some time that I don´t do so anymore when suspecting insertion, for not being clear what it be that they ate.

Ruphus

PS:
In general they appear healthy though. I take great efforts to feed them and their coat shines in the night like wet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 22:21:32
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

What Ander's says here is exactly what is the situation. Cesar Milan does
a great job explaining a lot of this in his video "People Training for Dogs".
Some people don't like Cesar Milan, but if you at least watch this video it
should help you to at least understand your dogs a bit.



quote:

Its pretty basic stuff Ruphus.
*Built up energy because they might not get enough exercise and lack challenges (Do you walk your dogs outside their fence?)
*Are they neutered?
*Living fenced in makes the outside world very interesting.
*Lack of exercise, to much testerone and an intriging outside world that you cant reach gives dogs stress and the easyests way to deal with that in dog world is fight and it normally escalates into something ugly .
If to this you add a poor leadership (you?) serious problems might happen. (Are you controlling the situation?)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 22:50:25
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3239
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus,

My advice is to get out of that hell hole as soon as you can. I am guessing that you are living in a Middle Eastern country, as their religion has a congenital, religiously-based hatred of contact with dogs. Why continue to live in such an environment? Get out! Move to a country that values Western values and love of animals. Why spend your life in constant conflict with a culture that places no value on those things that mean so much to you? Get out! Live your life among those who will let you live your life as you see fit.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 22:51:41
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Actually Ruphus, after re-reading your replies ... My conclusion - You should not have
dogs.

That might seem mean, or nasty, but your situation is all wrong for the dogs.

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 22:58:49
 
Leñador

Posts: 5235
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

I hate to say it but I think I agree. I love dogs to death but my current situation just doesn't allow for it, it would be completely unfair to the dog. Your circumstances might be different but the conclusion is the same. You're just not in a situation that has room for dogs.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 23:04:43
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Sorry to hear about your problems :-(
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 23:09:09
 
Escribano

Posts: 6252
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

Sorry to hear about your problems :-(


Me too. I know how much Ruphus loves animals and he is doing the best he can under the circumstances.

Keep it up Ruphus. As much free exercise as you can manage (unleashed) and do not try to control but lead. Packs need a leader. There are many books on this subject.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 7 2014 23:31:21
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Thank you, Simon! :O)

Actually, eventhough certainly not as perfect as could be, I think to be doing as you suggest.
If I had been mainly been trying to control the situation would had likely gotten out of hand.
Considering that these seem to be stemming from livestock guarding race ( who are very independent characters ) they obey amazingly well.
You should see them how they do when I calmly say "get in / get out", come, go and other basic orders. They will even refrain from food only a foot away from their noses.
Even when they rage against molesters mostly one hand clap from upstairs will suffice for them to retreat and let be.
It is only the darn fighting situation where nothing can make them listening.

And then there is that hard to manage conflict with them feeling backed up when I come close, and in the same time me needing to approach to pull them apart.

The book I got me last summer was useful in terms of motivational education, but very cluttered and tiring. It is gathering dust in the garage now.

Anyone know who the trainer was who suggested walking a big square ( and looking straight ahead ignoring the dog) for to get dogs walking well on the leash? That guy seemed to my taste.
-

To the others:
You are so right. I should have no dogs.
Wanted one all my life, but never allowed myself having one, because the conditions were never fitting.
Now they are the worst ever, and I only hosted these guys to safe their lives.
Today I mentioned to someone that I should had let them die. Had I not fed their mother she would had been forced to run for food. In the meantime her litter would had died from freezing cold weather.
It might have been better than the following fate of the six external siblings; and the four that I hosted ... So far their fate despite the evil happenings has been definitly much better than of their siblings, but I don´t know whether I can ensure their well-being in the future still.
-

Hermann is now limping in the basement and Charlie I see through the i-cam so depressed curled up in the yard. It breaks your heart.
( I have separated both from the females, so that they may sense drawback.)


Bill,

I have been completely fleeced by lowliest of contemporaries you could imagine. Now left with around 6% of what´s been mine.

Everyone tells me to finally leave, but I just can´t take it.
Have to first see that I can´t get a hold of scum or better even succeed with getting someone into jail and retrieving at least a part.
And I can´t accept to end up as an old poor guy who´d be crawling for some pocket money for the last section of his life, while some perfidious misusers of trust be scratching their grinning belly.

Other than that, I can´t put into words how homesick I am for little achievements of the civilzed world. Nothing would be more tempting than unsolving everything here, pack the dogs and leave.

There is hardly a single day that I do not curse about the total contradiction of out of all me having a stay around the worlds irrational epicenter.

I sent a letter to the president, kindly asking to either free me of commonly squeezing officials and path legal procedure for permission of import, so that I can introduce German product and compensate my losses through some biz, or open an illegally closed legal case of mine, so that I can resume sueing / get back some belongings and leave.

He sounds like sincerely aiming for some rational change / could be replying, possibly prepared to help. Dunno.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 1:23:58
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus -

Almost every country has "no-kill" animal rescues. Your best choice, and that for the
dogs might be to find one. You might seriously think about that. There are a lot of
people out there that would make a big effort to give these dogs a home, that it
seems you are not in a position to do.

Trying to be kind to a dog, is some times our own selfish being, making life cruel
for them ...

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 4:08:27
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Ruphus, I dont really you interested in changing the situation. You just need to let out all your anger which is ok, but you´re not going to change the life of your dogs this way. Thay dont care one cent about what you read, write or watch. They are up to reality here and now. Nothing else.
As I said its pretty simple. Having a pack of dogs with intact males living together in a closed area where nothing happens and giving them no exercise will in 99,9% of the time mean trouble. Besides that, its cruel. And I say that even though I know you are a good man and that you have good intentions, but in a case like this I look at the things in dog perspective and then its cruel.
Its will always help to neuter. But fewew things will change because of their age. They have already learnt their bad ways.
Again, if you are interested in doing something and not just write here, I can advice you some books. But trust me, its going to take a while to fix this problem, but if you stay where you are and keep your dogs, then at least it could give you something possitive to work on and another perspective of life. No other creature gives you back more than dogs that you work with. They absolutely LOVE it.

Best thing would be to move to another part of the world and if you could, take the dogs with you.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 7:51:39
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Hey Ruphus,

There was this insane German guy in my old 'hood who kept rescued cougars. In Oakland CA in a residential area. He also had three huge dogs that lived in the back yard, he reminded me of you.

I have a great story about this guy...And a film we made under his apt. - wanna hear the story?

BTW my grandfather was great man with animals, he was in the Signal Corps during part of WWII and he worked with messenger pigeons. After the war he raised pigeons and had a barn in his backyard where he raised racing pigeons. I should tell you about that too, if you want.

S.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 9:45:27
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

I must be talking Chinese.

I´ll try again.

# I absolutely had no intentions of keeping dogs here. After all, I did not refrain from doing so in Germany to then start keeping any over here. The reason they are here is because I just could not watch a stray dog´s third litter to perish in the way her first two had.
These dogs were not sheltered with the intention of keeping all four.
Plan was to give away two of them ( and you can read above, two were in fact given away already, only that I realized the true quality of the new owners and rescued them back after only 5 hours. - With those hours been enough to almost suffocate the male and have the female terrorized in a way that it took her over a year to normalize to a certain degree. Don´t want to mention what seems to have been done to her.)

# So, why are they here still?
Because best keepers I could observe here are still careless and totally uninformed ( even vets have nor real clue. They are educated to maximize cattle product). Not to mention common keeping.
You think condiotions at my place are cruel and that I should give them to someone here? That´s quite the irony.

And yet, last time I called the vet asking whether he knew of potential hosts has been yesterday. What will he reply usually?
Like: "The problem is that you are overly critical. You want to look after them, and you will fault the way new owners will treat them. As a result both of you will be angry on me."
Me: "As a veterinarian you should know that chaining up dogs ( besides, chains often hardly of 2m length here) all in the open without hut, locking them in dark booths over the day and feeding them bread or chicken carrion from deseases on chicken farms is less than suboptimal.
All I want is just a decent life for them, nothing too special."

#
As you mentioned yourself training dogs takes some space.
In the ~ 80 qm of the yard ( ~ 200 when I open the garage ) I get frustrated myself when training them. Without trying to make an excuse of it for my too little engagement.
I will substantially increase occupying them. ( In summer I was practicsing with them like every second day. But only for about ~ half an hour.)

#
The self-rewarding aspect that you impute to me really is cynism to me.
You don´t know what I have been through.
Starting with the endless trips to the vet, added three operations, one month of days & night nursing with setting up and supervising infusions after the first poisioning. Daily wiping up blood and tissue that would come out their rears. All the time wringing hands that they may survive ( with the doc certain that they could not).

Troubles with the nackers of several quarters around, with all kinds of actions including beatings.
As if conditions weren´t bad enough, taking care for the dogs has made a literal hell out of my life. Rewarding myself with this; my ass.

And down to having to cook their meals twice a day. Me who is so lazy with this kind of things that I neglect myself. My dogs eat better food than yours truely. I may skip a meal every other time, theirs have been skipped altogether three times in 2 years. ( I avoid that, because Charlie will lose appetite when there be too long until next meal. Probably because they did not reinsert his guts correctly after surgery.)
And not at last, feeding them at hyper inflation and paying the vet again and again leaves me with expenses of at least 1000 bucks per month. Probably even more, I haven´t dared to actually sum it all up.

#
And now you think I might light-heartedly bring two of them to the doc and let them euthanasized?

We had to do this with my beloved cat in April last year, because of him been a methusalem, and I have not overcome that memory one bit until now.

I am not stupid when being desperate.
I am looking at my wounded dogs today and I could smash my head against the wall.
-

What instructional works are concerned I would love to know who the guys is I mentioned above. If you don´t know who he could be, let your own suggestions come, please.
-

I am member in a really well informed forum for live stock guarding dogs. Inlcuding members who studied kynology and others who are inquired as pexperts before court, owners and stuff in shelters, certificat trainers etc.
That neutering would always help is a misinformation.
If you mention it there everyone will jump on you. And it would be weird coincident that so many experienced people could be erring simultaneously.

Had I known that I would get stuck with all four of them I would had neutered the males with young age. Now they have had sex already and would know what they be missing.
-

What the degree of cruelty is concerned. The wounds that have occured so far were often looking pretty bad at first when they swollen up, but healed amazingly fast. I know that among keepers of guarding dogs such injuries occure from time to time.

And commonly the brothers are like this.
Pic from some nights ago:


Only yesterday, things appeared different and I am now more worried than before.
Have arranged for someone to come over tomorrow, for us to walk the dogs notwithstandingly and try systematically to appease them.

Only if you mean the steady invadors, then I must fully agree. That is hell for the poor animals. And for me.

Ruphus

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 9:52:36
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Hey Ruphus,

There was this insane German guy in my old 'hood who kept rescued cougars. In Oakland CA in a residential area. He also had three huge dogs that lived in the back yard, he reminded me of you.

I have a great story about this guy...And a film we made under his apt. - wanna hear the story?

BTW my grandfather was great man with animals, he was in the Signal Corps during part of WWII and he worked with messenger pigeons. After the war he raised pigeons and had a barn in his backyard where he raised racing pigeons. I should tell you about that too, if you want.

S.


Sure, am I interested. Please tell us!

Ruphus

PS:
As a kid I was in Albania for some years, living in an orphanage ( state folks there originally wanted to put me as guest into a privileged family, but my mother thought it more valuable if I won´t ). Being foreigner the director tried to comfort me a bit for being thousands of km away from my family. I asked for a puppy*, but he said that would be impossible in such an institution. However, if I wanted I might have a pair of pigeons.
We went together and bought a beautiful pair and he let a storeroom be cleared in the upper floor for me.

It felt a bit like heaven for a day or three. I could go up there and be alone with these beautiful creatures who seemed to gradually adapt to me before I could open the window and have them returning.
Guess what ocurred very soon? ( Folks there, though relcutantly, have been 500 years under Turkish occupation, which left some traces.)
In the upper floor were the sleeping halls of the girls. Me was supposed to be looking good and they were interested in checking me out.
They would knock at the door and when I open they´d say nothing, only grin and run away.
After the Xth time I started cursing at them, and the terror set in. Now they would not knock but kick against the door and run away so amsued.
Each time the pigeons would get shocked and me correspondingly getting nuts. You could run after them, but could not beat girls which again they exploited to the last bit.

Finally I illegally moved with the pigeons on the roof which had no direct access, with me forced to climb a really crazy route ( as Richard put it so nicely once, at a certain age you think to be immortal). But the chance of getting the pigeons tame was over and it irked me how they would stay suspicious. Very justifiedly so, with such experiences.
But they liked the support and feeding and even won over mates who joined the little community.

After some time the director introduced new means to finally keep me from reaching the roof. From then on the pigeons fed themselves for a while before they left to new shores.
Me still loves these creatures. Their cuteness and how they smell. Their solidarity between couples, etc.
My neighbour has gotten himself some pigeons around the time when I got the puppies. ( With his family moaning about the "filthy stuff" he brought to their house, and the "disgrace".) He didn´t take the efforts to prepare homes for them like westerners usually do. So the cats catch themselves a pigeon here or there, with his reaction apparently being that he kills cats. ( I heard some corresponding noises a couple of times.)
Seeking safety the pigeons sit on my roof which is much higher and when I accidentally show up there they will not leave as long as I move slowly.

Aside from their incredible orientation skills and sometimes great speed, today we know that these creatures are highly intelligent. Together with grey parrots coming straight after crows.

( Dunno if you remember, I had raised a crow here named Pepe.
Seems she was shot with an air gun. I didn´t dare to inspect her dead body.)

In the German area called "Ruhrpott" people used to keep pigeons traditionally. Passionately breeding messenger pigeons and making competitions.
Folks there used to be miners and typically of the dearest kind in the country. I really dig their humble and humane mentality.
Just saying.

* Someone in fact brought me a puppy later on. But I won´t tell you what people did then, to not mess up mood completely.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 9:54:06
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Anders,

If you don´t mind the typing, please be so kind to describe me some interesting exercises beforehand, so that I can start out right away after appeasement.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 10:30:36
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Hi Ruphus,

Having followed your story since the original dump puppies thread, I have great admiration for your efforts. The amount of hassle you have been through with these dogs is really something. Now to find yourself in the current situation must feel all consuming.

I hope you can resolve the conflict somehow. Best wishes to you.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 10:31:56
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Thank you, muchacho.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 12:00:44
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

quote:

Anders,

If you don´t mind the typing, please be so kind to describe me some interesting exercises beforehand, so that I can start out right away after appeasement.


I wish things were that easy, but Dogs are complicated creatures and i dont think there are any quick fix with little effort and easy to explain on an internet foro.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 15:21:45
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Anders Eliasson

I only meant general exercises to have them occupied.
Think I´ll start using a clicker. Only need some interesting tasks.
Covered already are retrieving, sit, lay down, come, go, in, out, shame! and stop!
What it needs yet from the back of my head could be keep sitting when I put down the bowl, and delivering the ball into my hand ( which they do already, but not conistently.)

What appeasing is concerned ( probably what you were thinking of), I plan to walk the alpha with a friend following about 10 meters behind. He then shall slowly come closer. Should there come up tension, fall behind again, then approach again etc., until we have them walking side by side. Next I´ll be ahead then turning around and pass the beta frontally without letting them check out each other. Repeating several times until it be tension free / they can be had and meeting frontally checking without probs. Then return home and try in the yard on leash first, before releasing.

Sh!t man, stuff like this unnerves me.
When time comes I mostly behave cool and souvereign, but thinking of it makes me nervous.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 15:42:55
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Exercise in a confined space. Make a "flirtpole". Easy to make and good for getting
the dogs interest, and exercise. If you don't have room for that then you have a
problem.

Google "flirtpole" or "flirt pole"

I've used them for years for dogs, they don't need to be fancy, a pole a cord, and an
old sock will work. You have to spend the time with the dogs of course, but even in a
small space you can get their excess energy burned up.

Jef
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 17:59:36
 
Dave K

Posts: 155
Joined: Mar. 29 2006
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

[ Ruphus, I think the guy you're looking for may be David Dikeman, his training video is called "Command Performance". He does exactly as you describe. Good luck.

Cheers,
Dave


quote]Anyone know who the trainer was who suggested walking a big square ( and looking straight ahead ignoring the dog) for to get dogs walking well on the leash? That guy seemed to my taste[/quote]

_____________________________

Avise La Fin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 18:53:37
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Internet sometimes so lacking ba... (in reply to Ruphus

Thank you, Jef,

I had intuitively built something basically like that and the dogs loved it, naturally.
However, soon stopped using it, because agility has never been what they lack of and in view of the daily steering up from intruders I thought what would rather suit should be something that helped calming them down.

From there tiring them through brain work should fit better.

Muchas gracias, Dave!
I just noted it down.
-

Late in the night here and there was just another molester passing by, bubbling some aggressive rubbish towards us. When I opened the window the guy yet complaining about the now barking dogs.
I replied already with "Shut up, moron!" when realized that he must be of the uniformed paramilitaries that people dread.
Suffice to say that he halted for a second, too flabbergasted though about the reaction resuming his way.
Must have been a bizarre premiere.
>sigh< Sh!t happens.

Beam me up, Scott.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 8 2014 22:15:46
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 9 2014 2:21:28
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2014 0:51:51
Page:   [1] 2 3 4    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >> Page: [1] 2 3 4    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.125 secs.