RE: volume of a guitar

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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Morante)

I never played a flamenca by Vicente Camacho, but the nylon string classicals I played at his shop in Madrid were X-braced.

Camacho was the disciple of Modesto Borreguero, who was one of the three great oficiales of Manuel Ramirez, along with Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso.

Camacho said he did not get the X-bracing from Borreguero. I assumed, without asking, that it came from Martin.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 17:07:04

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

So loud guitars~ My thought was that the guys who played for Carmen Amaya needed loud double tops with carbon graphite braces-

and the guitarists of today need copies of Santos guitars, because Santos made some of the loudest guitars ever and it would save you guys from struggling with buying all those microphones.

The real answer is a time machine. -

Stephan,
You've undoubtedly played more Santos guitars than I have but the ones (only 2) that I had the opportunity to play were singularly unimpressive and definitely not loud. I always assumed they were worn out. The loudest old guitar I've played was an Esteso from the 30's and in all modesty my cedar top double body would easily drown it out.

It's a shame we can't play a new Santos since it might be a revelation. In my experience guitars built since around the 50's and 60's are uniformly louder than the older ones and it most cases the craftsmanship is better as well. Of course I'm not talking about the mass produced junk.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 18:17:54

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Later on they started finetuning that concept.

Ah HA!!!! so you admit the master builders DO fine tune then.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 19:46:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Stephan,
You've undoubtedly played more Santos guitars than I have but the ones (only 2) that I had the opportunity to play were singularly unimpressive and definitely not loud. I always assumed they were worn out. The loudest old guitar I've played was an Esteso from the 30's and in all modesty my cedar top double body would easily drown it out.

It's a shame we can't play a new Santos since it might be a revelation. In my experience guitars built since around the 50's and 60's are uniformly louder than the older ones and it most cases the craftsmanship is better as well. Of course I'm not talking about the mass produced junk.

I was just being ironic. One particular Santos' I've seen was a big gutty guitar, but I agree in general guitars are probably louder these days. But my thing, my question to my self as a maker right now, is to what end?
That's why I'm studying Torres as much as possible. I'm asking the question of how did sound change between now an then and I'm building a Torres as close as I can to how he did it to find out.

I should probably use captions to say when I 'm being ironic.

I need to invent an irony-o-con - maybe an emotocon shaped like an iron bar?

And someday I want to build your double top design too, I saved the pictures you so generously sent me.
( not ironic but true)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 15 2014 23:52:46

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

To TomB and Estebanana:

I will not continue the discussion. It brings up bad memories and its not worth that.

I didn´t mean to offend any of you and if I did so, I´m sorry.

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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 8:00:05

el carbonero

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

X bracing is not the good way .

The juan miguel carmona i tried are limited due to the x bracing .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 12:02:18

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

To TomB and Estebanana:

I will not continue the discussion. It brings up bad memories and its not worth that.

I didn´t mean to offend any of you and if I did so, I´m sorry.

You are a great man and this translates into great guitars. I wish that I could have done what you are doing right now; living in Spain and building guitars but I had other commitments that took me away from that life style. Be in good health.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 13:44:43

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to BarkellWH)

See you soon, Bill. Perhaps you will be interested in my annotated Sherlock Homes by Williams Baring-Gould.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 16:38:08

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

I need to invent an irony-o-con - maybe an emotocon shaped like an iron bar?

yeah, I thought about that, maybe a steam/clothes iron?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 16 2014 21:21:42

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Aren't aubergine and eggplant related but different? Eggplants larger/darker and aubergines smaller/bluer?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 16:24:55

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to pjn)

P.S I'm thinking of selling my C*onde which is not a R*yes and not to my knowledge f*ne t*ned.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 16:26:08

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to pjn)

quote:

P.S I'm thinking of selling my C*onde which is not a R*yes and not to my knowledge f*ne t*ned.

If you would accept part exchange, I might accept it and 8000 euros in exchange for my Gerundino

(which has not been fine tuned either).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 17:06:00

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to pjn)

Eggplant (Solanum melongena) is a species of nightshade commonly known in British English as aubergine and also known as melongene, garden egg, or guinea squash. --wikipedia

Apparently not... not that I'm an expert.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 17:55:00

beno

Posts: 881
Joined: Nov. 3 2006
From: Hungary

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

X bracing is not the good way .

The juan miguel carmona i tried are limited due to the x bracing

How did the X bracing limit the guitar? You mean in tone or in volume?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 19:45:00

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Morante)

Your post is probably more appropriate for the "Looking For A Gerundino For Under 5.000 Euro" thread

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 21:53:45

pjn

Posts: 113
Joined: Mar. 23 2009
From: New York

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Thanks for the eggplant, er aubergine clarification. I guess the smaller bluer ones are what they call Chinese Eggplant when you order delivery from the Hunan Palace on 98th and Broadway (with garlic sauce)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 21:56:23

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Yeah, I've got a plate of eggplant for you buddy. With sashimi on the side and extra wasabi for your smart alec attitude.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 17 2014 22:52:13

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to pjn)

That's possible. I have a Thai friend who has a couple eggplant plants that have roundish fruit as opposed to the long, slender Japanese eggplants or the big, almost pear-shaped Black Beauties. They really are good fresh. I also like Eggplant Parmigiana, although in that dish, it's really more of a cheese delivery mechanism.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2014 3:50:22

mellowmel

Posts: 85
Joined: Aug. 31 2006

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Tone is the real necessity, as voicing is what carries.

+ 1

After going to a local Guitar Center again after a couple of years , this is what I REALLY noticed too and it goes beyond just using solid woods.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2014 3:52:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to mellowmel)

It seems that the European builders were far ahead on this style of building, knowing certain aspects of guitar tone and how to manifest certain voicing techniques to cause a vowel tone rather than just string noise.

I don't think most American builders paid much attention to the truer Spanish styles until about 40 years ago, and even with this recognition we have been slow to pick up on certain fine tuning techniques that were used by the Spaniards.

It's ironic that American steel strung builders had a certain amount of this knowledge, even before most higher quality flamenco or classical styles came into vogue in this country.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2014 11:30:32

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

It seems that the European builders were far ahead on this style of building, knowing certain aspects of guitar tone and how to manifest certain voicing techniques to cause a vowel tone rather than just string noise.

I don't think most American builders paid much attention to the truer Spanish styles until about 40 years ago, and even with this recognition we have been slow to pick up on certain fine tuning techniques that were used by the Spaniards.

It's ironic that American steel strung builders had a certain amount of this knowledge, even before most higher quality flamenco or classical styles came into vogue in this country.

Care to divulge which American luthiers (of flamenco guitars I mean) you think have picked up on it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2014 22:45:02

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Care to divulge which American luthiers (of flamenco guitars I mean) you think have picked up on it?

No...

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 1:14:19

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Ricardo)

ricardo, plunk down the money for a fine tuning class and maybe tom will divulge.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 13:05:37

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to keith)

Yes, indeed.
The Illustrious Keeper of the Long-Held Secrets of The Ancient Ones will readily make them available to all......for a price.

Ya think Adalid paid?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 13:24:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to C. Vega)

Charles, it's always nice to hear from you :-)

Manuel paid $2,500 for the 2 day fine tuning class, last September, 2013, and he will return this Thursday, April 24, 2014 for a refresher class and business discussion about guitar models.

I'll try and let this list know what the outcome is, after the meeting.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 14:51:04

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

Well folks, there ya go....for a mere $2500 you, too, can learn "The Secrets" in just two days plus a little "refresher" course if necessary. At extra cost, no doubt.

Tom should have luthiers lining up at his door ready to take advantage of such a rare opportunity.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 15:07:11

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

Well folks, there ya go....for a mere $2500 you, too, can learn "The Secrets" in just two days plus a little "refresher" course if necessary. At extra cost, no doubt.

Tom should have luthiers lining up at his door ready to take advantage of such a rare opportunity.

Why have builders learn my fine tuning, it's not the only way to build guitars. But to those who feel their knowledge is not there yet, I do offer to level the playing field for the art.

How did you learn to build guitars? Was it with a teacher or perhaps by investigating guitars and picking up information from different sources to grow your craft into something to be cherished?

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 15:25:18

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

How did you learn to build guitars? Was it with a teacher or perhaps by investigating guitars and picking up information from different sources to grow your craft into something to be cherished?

Send me $2500 and I'll tell you.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 15:57:17

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: volume of a guitar (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

On an upper level of art relatively short lessons can still be worth a lot.

A private lesson for an advanced person in an artform that I am familiar with may cost him from 250 € upwards per mere 45 minutes. However the detail conveyed is so ample that it will occupy you for years exercising on it.

It really is like that, without exaggeration.

And Tom´s proficiency could as well be taking an advanced person some time and practice to realize the lecture, hence those 2,5 grands providing learning material for an extensive way of learning.
Whilst the outcome could be worth much more even, if it enables to manufacture guitars voiced similar distinctive to his.
-

Simple logic tells me: Ridiculing the idea of a final touch is bovine laughter.
It is only clear that, related know-how provided, a last individual adjustment for optimal resonating property can only be of sense.

And no, it won´t take you to have built a guitar first to reason this.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 21 2014 16:52:17