Picado and hand size.

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edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

Picado and hand size.

I'm so frustrated with my damn hands. I do staccato and it looks good.
But I try and do picado normal and it looks like crap.

Just wondering what the hands of people who can do picado well, look like, here is mine. Look how long my friken middle finger is, is this part of the problem or am I crazy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 22:58:13

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Ok just watched Juanitos vid of picado and looks like he has a long middle finger as well and he can do it. So I think it's just I'm incompetent.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 23:05:20

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

im pretty sure everyone has a similar size ratio between I and M. However my A and I are very similar, your A is huge compared to your I (you know what they say about people with big Annular fingers ;) poor A I picado...).

Im gonna say something crazy, my picado looks better than yours with less movement (ive not played as long) but sounds like .... Do your own thing man just keep playing it slow with little movement then it should come. Id kill for your playing haha I love your attitude, perfectionist.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 23:08:35

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

I'm not gonna give up, but I am feeling humbled and frustrated. Thanks for the props Aretium.

So my a i picado would be worse, maybe i should be doing it with i a but i don't think there is enough strength in my a finger. I do it with i a sometimes but i feels weird.

I would still like to see pics of other peoples hands, it might help me figure this out.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 23:31:04

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 30 2014 23:43:27

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 23:41:46

Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Here you go, I do actually notice now that your middle is quite large. I dont think it should matter, remember all your fingers are different lengths and you got used to that! My I ends where the m nail begins which is similar to yours.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 30 2014 23:43:47

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

I think my middle is a nail and a half bigger than my i finger and my a finger is one nail length longer. your middle is one nail length longer and your a is barely bigger, hmmmmmmmm. uhh that is your right hand right.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 2:29:25

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Gabriel do you think Jason McGuire's (or insert your own guitar idol) hands are shaped in some magical way?

It's called slow focussed practice. The only way.

No excuses.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 7:42:41

davidheis_24

Posts: 134
Joined: Feb. 4 2011
From: QLD AUS

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

the guitar will send you crazy if you haven't already done so!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 8:26:02

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

No **** I know that, how do you think I got to where I am, I'm just trying to get information to play better. I'm not trying to find some friken excuse to not be able to play good Picado.

It's not like I sit around and record **** until it sounds half ass.
I work really hard at it.

Jason has little fat hands that look weird and kick ass.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 12:36:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Edgar,
your hands don't look so good for picado! The stereotype is that fat, short fingers that are more even with each other is what you want. Maybe when your fingers are different lengths, it's kind of like running with a club foot...

But the human mind is amazing, it can adjust. Keep working hard, keep working smart, you can do it. Picado is a bitch. By the way, I enjoyed your Ron-dena a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 14:02:37

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

I'm so frustrated with my damn hands. I do staccato and it looks good.
But I try and do picado normal and it looks like crap.

Just wondering what the hands of people who can do picado well, look like, here is mine. Look how long my friken middle finger is, is this part of the problem or am I crazy.

yes you are crazy!
no one in their right mind would spend the amount of time you do on this never ending and probably never achievable quest for flamenco guitar playing perfection....
I recognise the symptoms coz I am EXACTLY THE FRIKKIN SAME!!!

.....and in these periods of most frustration we wonder if we will ever improve, ever get to where we want to be, and inevitably wonder if there is something wrong with our hands....

there's a quote, I don't know where from, I think someone on here used to have it as their post sign-off signature thing, it's something like:-

"ask not what you would do with Paco's hands, ask what Paco would do with your hands."

It's a good one to keep in mind.
In the absence of injury or disease it's most likely there is absolutely nothing wrong with your hands,
you just have to learn to use them in the right way.

I'm not saying this from the point of view of someone who has achieved that,
but from someone who has learned to remind myself of this when I'm in one of those frustrating plateau's when progress seems so slow it's almost running backwards (sound familiar?).
Funny thing is, the more I keep this in mind the more progress I seem to make....
(it's still pretty slow though, but I have learned to stop worrying about getting to the "destination" and to just enjoy the "journey")

Watch some vids of Paco and just watch his right hand.
Minimal movements, complete relaxation of all the muscles except the exact ones required for each movement, etc. etc. it's beautiful to watch!
Or watch some old vids or the Encuentro's of Rafael Riqueni, or Enrique de Melchor, or Gerardo Nuñez.... actually there are so many great players to watch, take your pick!

Actually having lessons from someone who has really gotten that down,
or sitting in with them watching them play, is really good,
you can kind of pick up that relaxed but alert quality in the hands almost by osmosis.... it's actually much better in person than on vid....

good luck with your upcoming lesson/s!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 14:12:20

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Gabriel, why don't you use index and ring fingers for your picado? They definitely work great once you get used to them.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2014 18:36:19

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

quote:

Just wondering what the hands of people who can do picado well, look like, here is mine. Look how long my friken middle finger is, is this part of the problem or am I crazy.

Edgar, I think my middle finger is at least as disproportionately long in relation to the ring finger as is yours.

For a while, I focused on i-a picado (as Grisha was suggesting), since those fingers are closer in length. That seems to work best (for me) when my right arm is completely perpendicular to the strings.

Eventually, however, I switched to i-m picado because the tendons for those fingers are more independent of one another. Once I got used to it, my picado improved substantially.

One way to compensate for the difference in length between the i and m fingers is just to tilt the guitar slightly so that the strings become more parallel to the nails of the uneven fingers. (Or tilt your torso in relation to the guitar).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 10:35:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Here is a super slow excercise to try Gabe.

Place i,m and a on the fourth string, hand position for reststrokes.
Play the open D string with all three fingers together landing firmly and resting on A string . Focus on getting a single clear fat sound (NO ROLLING).

Then play the open A string with the middle finger. IMMEDIATELY place all three fingers on the D string. Try and get the same huge sound and tone as you got with three fingers.

Do as slowly as possible. It's a two note excercise. Give it ten mintutes and it will answer your question.

Ten minutes a day for a few weeks and it will solve it.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 12:47:08

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Place i,m and a on the fourth string, hand position for reststrokes.
Play the open D string with all three fingers together landing firmly and resting on A string . Focus on getting a single clear fat sound (NO ROLLING).

This is what I am currently showing to a student, as freestroke, with restroke version yet to come.

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Then play the open A string with the middle finger. IMMEDIATELY place all three fingers on the D string. Try and get the same huge sound and tone as you got with three fingers.

I´ll try this for myself over the next days to see how it works. Gracias!
- Assuming that it provides the conscious passive release of the resting i and a fingers from the A string.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 15:29:44

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Hey D, what exactly is the aim of this ex?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 17:04:39

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Perfectly straightforward Miguel.

I remember a long lone time ago practicing scales a lot and the trick was to learn to place the LH fingers on each new string simultaneously whenever possible. I think most people do this and it is normal LH training and so almost noone complains that they cant play scales because their LH fingers are of unequal length.

For the excercise I described above in order to play the stroke with all three fingers without flams you have to memorise the differing curvature of each finger (a subconscious act) which allows all three fingers to pass through the string simultaneously. Also there is so much weight behind the note that you will get a huge sound. Then when you play the m finger on it's own you have the opportunity to compare the tone. Also you should be using the same curvature that had previously allowed the simultaneous stroke. And of course you develop independence of the difficult m finger by forcing yourself to use it in that position which allows all three to work well.

The great pianist Sviatolslav Richter when talking about technique said that is almost impossible to draw a circle with one hand but very easy with two. So whenever a way of practicing seems to help one hand I assume that it will be interesting or useful to try and find an analogue with the other.

But that sounds complicated and really it is the simplest thing in the world. If you want all three fingers to work well on a single string then learn to use all three on a single string and then use the individual fingers in the same motion.

Lastly I have been working a lot on three finger picado which is great fun.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 17:26:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Nice, D, it sounds like it has lots of benefits. Certainly the m finger is my black sheep which causes so many problems in our family.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 18:07:26

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria

Nice, D, it sounds like it has lots of benefits. Certainly the m finger is my black sheep which causes so many problems in our family.

I dunno. I look on youtube and all of the 'cool' exercises have lots and lots of notes. Almost like they are little pieces which are supposed to sound cool and aren't exercises at all.

And I think 'If it need's to sound cool maybe I should just play pieces and not pretend to be doing exercises'.

I remember meeting a young classical guitarist from Venezuela who had and exceptionally even and accurate RH scale technique and he showed me his one and only exercise for this. And it was one note played with one finger and then immediately damped with the other.

I thought to myself. Wow that works. But it won't sell.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 19:04:54

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I recently read Sal's article on picado, as I've had some soul-searching myself lately on this account. His advice was essentially to forcefully play the string and relax it immediately as you plant the other. Stop. Repeat with the other finger. Stop. Etc.

I've been aware of this idea but never had the discipline to really stick with it and do it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 19:21:23

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

Since we aren't chopping any fingertips, why bother?

I just practice picado like any other technique in any other instrument and the "method" is based on... the body. Your mind knows what you want to do and it will adapt your body to what it's needed, that's why I never believed in proper ways of doing things since we all have different bodies.

Just don't overthink it and just play.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 19:33:00

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

That is a recipe used by the hosts who try to learn an instrument without success yet after decades.

Just do what your body´s temporary coordination suggests and you may be making progress if it accidentally fits, or rather won´t.

Guys who spill prodigies in a row like Prof. Chen ought to be sharlatans anyway. Just like progress of gitano kids ought not to be connceted to didactical valuable example.

Simply do the way you feel like and things will work out; sure.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 20:12:18

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Ruphus)

quote:

That is a recipe used by the hosts who try to learn an instrument without success yet after decades.

Just do what your body´s temporary coordination suggests and you may be making progress if it accidentally fits, or rather won´t.

Guys who spill prodigies in a row like Prof. Chen ought to be sharlatans anyway. Just like progress of gitano kids ought not to be connceted to didactical valuable example.

Simply do the way you feel like and things will work out; sure.

Ruphus

I assume that the original poster and everyone here knows how to hold a guitar. I thought it would be obvious that Iam referring to the fine detaills of hand movement that will always depend on the person's anatomy even if you try to force it by mirroring what someone else does.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 20:51:20

edgar884

Posts: 1975
Joined: Nov. 16 2005

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Grisha)

I'LL TRY Grisha.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2014 21:12:19

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

Iam referring to the fine detaills of hand movement that will always depend on the person's anatomy even if you try to force it by mirroring what someone else does.

I see; been missing out on that.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 0:00:43

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to edgar884)

I actually sucked at picado yesterday.

But then i practiced for like an entire afternoon, and now
i'm ripping through runs like Paco.

You just have to be willing to put in that kind of time.
Not everybody has that kind of extreme discipline.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 2:12:16

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to ToddK)

The "on one day, off the next day" is something I'm very familiar with. Sometimes I wonder if I actually need to get up early and practice picado for an hour every morning if I want to have it that day.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 2:46:14

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Picado and hand size. (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

The "on one day, off the next day" is something I'm very familiar with. Sometimes I wonder if I actually need to get up early and practice picado for an hour every morning if I want to have it that day.

In another thread, Gabe actually claims to have improved his picado after
a 7 hour practice session.

I am just poking fun at the utter rediculousness of his impatience.
I feel a bit sorry for him at this point.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2014 6:37:14