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RE: New Dimensions, New Times
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
wow...ya'll so depressing again. The world is F ing BEAUTIFUL! we all are lucky to experience this brief moment in time. Wealth is not colored pieces of paper or statistics in a bank statement. Once you realize it, you understand what freedom is. Viva flamenco!, arsa y toma!!
Right on, Ricardo! There is plenty to be thankful for. While there may not be the same accelerated mobility in the U.S. that we experienced post World War II through the 1960s, most people are doing OK. There are pockets of poverty, but poverty probably will never be completely irradicated, and as economies improve, poverty always gets redefined upward anyway. I remember well the period 1979-1980, when the rate of inflation reached 14 percent and people watched their savings rapidly eaten away. We're doing much better than that today, and have done so throughout the 1980s and 1990s when the economy took off. In my opinion, that the current recovery has not resulted in the job creation some expected is a result of automation and the requirements of the "knowledge economy." It has resulted in greater efficiency, and there isn't the same need for labor in manufacturing.
Overseas there is reason for optimism as well. Since Deng Xiao Ping set China free of its stifling Marxist economics and introduced Capitalism and private enterprise, literally millions of Chinese have been pulled out of poverty. We are seeing the same phenomenon in India now, with millions of Indians beginning to enter the middle class. Of course the doomsayers will reply that all of this has meant greater inequality. That is the mantra today. In time, however, the great gap will close to within sustainable levels. In any case, a certain amount of inequality is good, as it drives people to strive for upward mobility.
While all of the above concerns, as you put it, "colored pieces of paper" and "statistics in a bank statement," your point about it not being the sum total of "wealth" is on the mark. We are indeed lucky to be living in this brief moment in time and experiencing the freedom that most of us have to do pretty much as we want.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 30 2014 14:11:40
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z6
Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
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RE: New Dimensions, New (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I thought Ricardo was being 'ironic'.
Indeed, for the good ole U. S. of A. things are simply peachy.
Capitalism may not be a zero sum game but politics might be. Ask inmates at Guantanamo if they feel the same way as you. The US has been waging war on the poorest nations for decades. Spreading democracy at the point of a gun surely is not a requirement to protect all that freedom? The people dying from drone attacks in Afgahnistan might also disagree.
Hell, you guys even made lovely laws to protect US citizens from your own government but those laws do not extend to the rest of the world.
Anyway, have it as you will. I don't give a gonad about America and how free it is. But the fear of litigation keeps the health service employees on their toes over there. In the UK, it takes many years to get medical establishments to even look at grievances. And even if one 'wins' they seldom even offer an apology.
The world is not in a great state in my estimation. But it is not really the fault of governments. We appear to get the leaders we deserve. The US has primaries. The UK does not. The party system has locked down democracy in a country with no written constitution. In the U.S we have seen serious political candidates, and even presidents, who are frightening dimwits, with no grasp of anything beyond their shores.
But I'm hoping at least that Snowden is awarded a Nobel Prize for spilling so many beans. (Not that it will make a blind bit of difference.)
Charactierizing China as benefitting from some kind of freedom might be stretching things a little. Being Chinese, in China, is no great shakes as far as freedom goes. And their 'capitalist tendencies' are eating up Africa as its most dreadful leaders make deals for all of their future wealth.
Unbendable US support for the state of Israel has caused untold oppression and horror. If it were South Africa we would see that the victims are black and even dimwit Americans (the 45% or so who are illiterate) might see the carnage they have caused and are still causing. But they are filthy muslims, terrorists, not fit to be treated as human.
But I would not blame the US any more than any other country in that position. It all seems invitable.
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Date Jan. 30 2014 15:37:31
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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How ironic to see defenders of an enslaving and entirely irresponsible economy model mention before all apparent zero-sum games.
That while Bill refuses to understand that each and every blossom that slavery, feudalism and capitalism ever produced has always come about for a price, and always very inefficiently / under blatant waste of the counter weight.
The post-war flourishing for one was grounded on imperial ways of ressourcing from underdeveloped countries and totalitarian regimes.
Chinas economical rise after Deng´s change of premise would not really set in ( anyone remember the initial paper and wire products that landed at our shores like at Ikea stores, without really all too significant feedback?) until China started taking the labour part for western manufacturers.
And when you consider the overall drawback of reduced labour conditions in the west, comparing it to the humble measure of risen living standard in China considered under internal currency value, you may discover that it has been a very inefficient swap once again to say the least.
And wonder which, considering the common chopping off under capitalism.
The feeding of the new official billionaires in China as well as of the inofficial drain of the officials mentioned above, must come from somewhere. ( - Really. No joking. ;O/ )
Not to forget about profiteering of western orderers who insist on their traditional shares just like before still; and in most cases actually much more even than before.
After all that is why they moved the labour part to China.
And not at last, the environmental price paid as mentioned by Z above. ( Scientists have began equaling ecology in economical terms. And when you estimate the ecological sacrifice behind Bill´s achievements you realize the severe loss of sustainability actually contained in those false blessings.)
So, how was that exactly with zero-sum games?
For, one thing that defenders of inhumane economizing hold back with on principle is a certain unexpected fact:
Affluent earning of money can not be arranged through picking greenbacks from money trees. Those papers and traded values can not just be "generated", you know. Not without following recession.
Unfortunately, money is in fact a placeholder for actual performance, which again is being delivered by people whose 40 or more hours of actual weekly labour for some reason hardly suffices to provide even just their primare needs.
Not too far in the future you won´t be able anymore to distract middle school graduates with thelike naive reasonings and equations in the air.
Deng Siao Ping, ... &§§. 
Ruphus
PS:
Under sane terms, automation in manufactury should lead to a bettering of the people.
Only under injust conditions of exploitation will automation yield no benefit for the people or even result in disadvantage.
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Date Jan. 30 2014 17:18:19
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
So, how was that exactly with zero-sum games?
The idea that someone's gain must result in another's loss is preposterous, Ruphus. That "B" is poor because "A" is well off defies logic and common sense, not to mention elementary economics. There are many reasons why someone might be poor, and just as many reasons why another might be well off.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 30 2014 19:51:40
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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quote:
For, last that I understood anything from it, economics based on the fact that no procedure could turn limited resources into infinite ones.
We are not talking about infinite resources. Ever hear of economic growth? To use China again as an example, its' economy has been growing at an average rate of 10 percent per year over the last 30 years.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 30 2014 21:49:34
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to mezzo)
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quote:
What a wonderfull system! A capitalistic economy in a autoritarian political state.
Chinese are far better off today than they were 40 years ago under Mao. Under Mao's totalitarian system, the economy was a shambles, everyone (except the Communist nomenklatura) was poor, No one could travel, and Mao's policies, directly and indirectly, resulted in the deaths of 30 to 40 million Chinese.
Today, since Deng Xiao Ping's reforms in 1978, China has a robust economy (it has grown an average of ten percent a year for the last 30 years), Chinese are far better off, both economically and in overall freedom to pursue their interests. Millions travel every year.
I don't know about you, but given the choice, I would much rather live in today's China than Mao's China. That they may not be as democratic as we would like does not mean they have not made great advances. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
As far as Chile under Pinochet, his authoritarian government did not allow for political freedom. Nevertheless, the Chilean economy set the standard for Latin America when other countries were experiencing constant economic crises. And since Chile reinstated democracy after Pinochet left, it still gets its economics right.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 30 2014 22:04:36
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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You and I will never agree on issues concerning political and economic systems, Ruphus. You may recall we covered this same ground in a thread more than a year ago, and we probably are boring those who are reading this one. I respect your views, as I respect the views of others with whom I disagree. And I still think it would be great to get together on some occasion with you, Richard, and Stephen over dinner and a bottle of wine. (You are the only one of the three I haven't met.) So let's just agree to agreeably disagree and allow this thread to be taken in a different direction by others.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 31 2014 11:12:54
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Ruphus
Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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I wouldn´t think that seeking minds must be bored. At least to me there is almost always something to learn from when following arguments. And those who may typically be bored will rather not visit a thread like this anyway.
Yet, sure can we halt on the branch discussed.
- And maybe continue with further subconsequences, possibly even agree on that you too are not expecting any good from erased natural refuges and extinction of all higher developed species, except of ourselves ( to then follow after a short while of Mad-Max scene).
For that is one thing I always wonder in sight of defenders of the status quo:
Are you not concerned at all about the extinction going on?
Do you think the ecological devastation to be half as much?
Do you possibly expect that humans will suffice themselves?
Or do you count with new species to pop up within managable time frame? ( Let alone very special and admirable ones like the big cats et al.)
-
I too would think it intertaining if we met up. Have many times imagined how it would be if foro members would meet, and think it would be some really great days together.
However, as Simon´s kind trial to organize showed, such will likely not occure that soon.
And with me anyway. I am nailed here with noone trustworthy at hand to sit my doggies and guard the house.
My time shall come if I can move from here.
Not decided yet where to head to then, but Granada environs is among the favorites and shall that be, me will certainly be seeing some of you mates.
Tapas and a bottle on the table ... >sigh<, antique city sites or handsame landscapes in the background ... Yours truely is being really homesick for little pleasures and aesthetics in life.
Cheers,
Ruphus
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Date Jan. 31 2014 12:20:57
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Ruphus)
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Ruphus,
maybe it's a matter of the time frame that we use. If you are a Cold Warrior, your idea of Communism is, inescapably, the authoritarian horrors of USSR and China. And, given the scope of the last 100 years, who wouldn't prefer to live in the US? Who can't say the US has done better? So the discussion gets framed in this stark way, and the argument can't change much from this beginning.
It takes a different time frame to emphasize that no economic system has ever despoiled the Earth with even a fraction of the efficiency and thoroughness that Capitalism has. It takes only a little extrapolation to see the planet made unlivable due to the corporations' ruthless efficiency in destruction, resource extration, and "externalizing costs". It does take quite a bit of extrapolation to see that they will have ultimate, Orwellian power over the everday citizen in time.
But that is not so much our problem as our children's problem and their children's problems. And Conservatism is about self-reliance, rugged individualism, facts. The fact is, the unborn can fend for themselves. Our job as good consumers is to consume as much as we can before they get here.
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jan. 31 2014 14:15:52
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
Conservatism is about self-reliance, rugged individualism, facts. The fact is, the unborn can fend for themselves. Our job as good consumers is to consume as much as we can before they get here.
Your comment suggesting that Conservatives consider their job to "consume as much as we can..." prompts me to make one last observation of a personal nature (regarding myself), Miguel. I consider myself a Conservative, not a right-wing, Tea Party wingnut, but an old fashioned Conservative. I do not own a cell phone, an I-Pad, or an electronic mobile device of any kind. I bought my Sony television set in 1990, making it 24 years old. It is still working fine, and I see no reason to buy a new 52" flat screen TV. My previous car was a 1998 Honda Civic which I owned for 12 years before someone ran into it in 2010, forcing me to buy a new one. I now own a 2010 Honda Civic that I hope will last another 12 years or longer. I only own a computer (and it is ten years old!) because one cannot operate without one these days.
As a Conservative, I challenge liberals who prattle on about how Conservatives place their faith on the altar of consumption to honestly reveal just how much consumption they, themselves engage in. That's not to say that Conservatives don't engage in massive consumption; rather, it is to suggest that many liberals talk a good anti-consumption game while engaging in just as much consumption as the Conservatives to whom they impute such activity, and whom they disparage for doing so. In such cases, I suggest that the old definition of "hypocrisy" applies: "The homage that vice pays to virtue."
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 31 2014 15:20:50
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: New Dimensions, New Times (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Bill, I certainly didn't mean that post as an attack on you personally, more a free-wheeling slam on Fox News watchers, Rush Limbaugh clones, and codgers at the tennis court who think young'uns with long hair need a good talkin' to. When we try to make a point, we are free to choose from all the "enemies'" worst characteristics, so we can create a truly disgusting effigy!
Do liberals really conserve more than conservatives? I doubt it on an individual basis. For every vegan who bikes to work, there's a card-carrying Republican wearing clothes older than me with a tiny carbon footprint. But I don't really think it's about hypocrisy, individual decisions, self-reliance. That discussion just tries to divide the little people and set them bickering amongst themselves for what trickles down. Conservatives (politicians, opinion-makers) talk about that and their corporate backers are the ones who are destroying the world. The rejoinder will always be "but we buy their products", "we let them", "we are compliant in all these crimes"--but, well, groups of human beings do not make long-term ecologically sound decisions anymore than do mice in a field who come across an overturned grain cart. The decisions we make in micro, individually, are a result of human nature and the environment we find ourselves in, not some kind of original sin that sets us up to get what we deserve.
Whew, I channeled Ruphus! As to personal austerity:
2003 Toyota Matrix, bought in 2002.
Inspiron 530 from 2007.
Tezanos-Perez from 2003. :)
_____________________________
Connect with me on Facebook, all the cool kids are doing it.
https://www.facebook.com/migueldemariaZ
Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Jan. 31 2014 15:49:50
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