Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Why buy a handmade guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

Why buy a handmade guitar? 
Hey all,
I wanted to put into writing some of my thoughts on buying a handmade guitar. Hopefully anyone that reads this will see why they should order a guitar from one of the fine luthiers on this Foro or elsewhere!

http://andyculpepperguitars.wordpress.com/2014/01/08/why-buy-a-handmade-guitar/

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2014 23:58:13
 
Blondie#2

 

Posts: 530
Joined: Sep. 14 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
I actually think you've missed something Andy: consistency.

My experience with factory guitars VS luthier made is that (especially with 'larger' factory makers) buying is a complete crapshoot - trying it out is essential as quality can vary *so* much. I have played factory guitars around the £1k mark that have had no set up whatsoever - I'm not talking about personal preference, but basic things like the nut not being nut cut properly and the guitar being horrible to play. Also have played guitars in that price bracket that are dead and sound no better than a sub £100 guitar.

Whilst people can argue that quality will always vary even with luthier made, and that once in a while a guitar will be magic but there are certain luck factors involved etc (of course), the overall variation in quality is much smaller with luthier made, there is much more *consistency*and therefore much less risk if buying unseen - a big factor today.

I have two handmade guitars, one flamenco and one classical. Both were bought unseen and they are the only two guitars I have ever owned that had perfect set ups on arrival, and are so alive/vibrant that its very hard to find a factory guitar that comes close.

I think there are a few factory makes that stand out and have good reps for consistency, but they are few.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 7:24:32
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
I really appreciate all the points you mentioned, yet think there typically is even more to add on the practical side.

One of the first contributions I made when joining guitar boards was to emphasize the fact that not all expensive guitars are worth the money and that vice versa you can occasionally find incredible specimens among factory batches.

However, the latter is rare, and common instead is that there is an essential difference. Among diverse factors the circumstance alone that individual property of the wood is being considered at determining mass and measures lends something to the instrument which I consiider the main attraction of luthiery made guitars.
Personality.

There tends to be more headroom in dynamics and more even tonal variety that can be determined by your touch of the strings.

Seeing my experience with upper student guitars and handmade ones, usually there is no comparison.
And that is without yet considering makes of specially strong personality like what I hear in recordings with guitars of our guitar makers here. ( Who with the exception of Tom come in at even very modest pricings. Actually at what upper student guitars will cost you in the store.)

From there, unless there are too many specifics on the wishlist, ordering from luthiers to me appears the second of best choices.

The first one might be second hand selection from a large range of offers.
Most predictable and at chances of bargain.

That said some luthiers can produce remarkably consistent.
You count to them, Andy, seeing from the clips that I have auditioned.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 9:26:50
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
I agree totally with you Andy......

The question should be: why NOT buying a handmade guitar?

An Amalio Burguet ABF for instance is here in Holland 3650,- euro.....so for the price you should not have to worry....

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 11:31:24
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to gerundino63) 
What is not a handmade guitar? Even in vietnamese factories they build guitars by hand, just very quickly.
I guess the question would be why buy a luthier made guitar.

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 12:21:59
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to tele) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: tele

What is not a handmade guitar? Even in vietnamese factories they build guitars by hand, just very quickly.
I guess the question would be why buy a luthier made guitar.


The category might depend on the share of craftmanship. Assembling CNCed parts involves considerably less manual labour and individual adjustment than what may be considered handmade.

And with "handmade", I assume, most of us associate dedicated production like luthiery.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 15:04:31
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to gerundino63) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

An Amalio Burguet ABF for instance is here in Holland 3650,- euro.....so for the price you should not have to worry....


The A-models are considered to be handbuilt by Amalio himself.
My "AB Rio" classical ( <- avatar) besides came in for around 5000 €.
( It killed other highly reputated examples 4 times as expensive. His ABFs on the other hand appeared nice guitars to me, but not nearly as flappy and hoarse like builds we discuss as very flamenco.)

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 15:13:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Ruphus) 
quote:

Assembling CNCed parts involves considerably less manual labour and individual adjustment than what may be considered handmade.


So do you believe that in factorys where they have a socalled model made by the master himself, that the master does not use CNCed parts and that he does everything different than the rest of the production in his factory?????

Its an enourmous grey zone. Use your intuition and buy what you trust.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 15:34:15
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

So do you believe that in factorys where they have a socalled model made by the master himself, that the master does not use CNCed parts and that he does everything different than the rest of the production in his factory?????


I would not bet on it.
But what me would count with is that he will at least adjust and tune.
The guitar I selected of his performs like what I fancy as large-scale build.

Really complex and lush, though not yet my desert island choice on a very picky scale.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 15:45:58
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2178
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to tele) 
Anybody can buy a factory Tele or Strat. But Fender have a Custom Shop, where the same designs are assembled or lightly modified carefully by hand.

They cost 3 times the price, but are highly valued by professional players. There must be a difference, no?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 16:00:38
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Ruphus) 
i think one reason why a factory guitar may come out as a good guitar over the hundreds of others that come out ok or dogs is because that one guitar hit the odds paydirt--sort of like someone will win the lottery but most do not. or to paraphrase a quote: out of hundreds of chimps tapping on a typewriter eventually one will write something to rival shakespear. cranking out hundreds of guitars by factory workers suggests there is very little going on that luthiers do to make everything fall into place and create a good to great guitar.

by the way, jose oribe is a big believer of using machines to get the pieces ready for his fingers/brain/experience.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 17:29:56
 
Lorenzo714

Posts: 76
Joined: Oct. 8 2013
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
For me personally unless I can't afford to will always buy a luthier made to order guitar for several reasons;

Built to my specs , wood type, setup, measurements, finish etc etc.

Plus I find it a more personal experience one feels a special attachment to the instrument and develops a special friendship with their luthier.

_____________________________

Lorenzo Bonc
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp9GaFPV-Ax4mR-ZoGzYmyg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 18:09:40
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: keith
by the way, jose oribe is a big believer of using machines to get the pieces ready for his fingers/brain/experience.

Smart man. Why waste time doing operations by hand that are done quicker and more accurately by a machine. Save your time and talent for critical procedures that require hands, ears and intuition.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 18:13:26
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:


Smart man. Why waste time doing operations by hand that are done quicker and more accurately by a machine. Save your time and talent for critical procedures that require hands, ears and intuition.


Yeah, as long as you remember to do the important things by hand, like final thicknessing the soundboard, flexing the braces and assemble with no stress in the parts. Thats where the difference is and thats why many guitars fail.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 20:38:07
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Lorenzo714) 
quote:

Plus I find it a more personal experience one feels a special attachment to the instrument and develops a special friendship with their luthier.


Thats the best argument so far. Something personal and special in a time full of massproduced products with no soul.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 20:39:15
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Lorenzo714) 
quote:

Built to my specs , wood type, setup, measurements, finish etc etc.

Plus I find it a more personal experience one feels a special attachment to the instrument and develops a special friendship with their luthier.


Yep, that's what I was getting at exactly.

I am also totally fine with using machines to do the grunt work. "Handmade" isn't exactly the right word because factories still do a lot of the work by hand. I guess "handmade by an individual luthier" is more accurate.

_____________________________

Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 22:16:31
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Yeah, as long as you remember to do the important things by hand, like final thicknessing the soundboard, flexing the braces and assemble with no stress in the parts. Thats where the difference is and thats why many guitars fail.

Anders,
Perhaps you can explain to me how thicknessing (strange word) the top can be done more precisely by hand than in a thickness sander? I'm not talking about staging the top or tapers etc. I will happily grant that there is a lot of intuition involved in bracing, checking for stiffness, tap tones and other aspects of building but some things are simply more accurate when done by a machine.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2014 23:38:38
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
I have never tried a thickness sander (drum sander) that is totally precise, so I prefere the finishing the top with a scraper and a palm sander with a 120 grit paper.
Drum sanders tend to make either the center or one of the sides of a plate slightly thicker.
Besides, the final tenth of a mm, I prefer to work slowly around the wood, finding the right point.
Then of course, its easily spoiled when scraping or sanding the bindings and final sanding the whole guitar (many a guitar has been destroyed doing that), but it always helps to get as close to best as early in the process as possible

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 7:08:47
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Drum sanders tend to make either the center or one of the sides of a plate slightly thicker.


Not if you take the table to a machine shop for surface grinding like I did. The planer and jointer had the same treatment. It's amazing the difference it makes.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 14:50:00
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
I dont doubt it, but anyways, I prefer to keep the soundboard in my hands while I do the last bit and not put it into a machine and wait untill it spits out the soundboard.
You know, it has to do with soundboard energy flow.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 15:44:26
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Plus I find it a more personal experience one feels a special attachment to the instrument and develops a special friendship with their luthier.


Thats the best argument so far. Something personal and special in a time full of massproduced products with no soul.


The last two guitars I bought, it was almost as much because I liked the luthiers as it was that I thought the guitars would be good. Both luthiers are Mexican. One guitar turned out to be a very good deal for the money, the other turned out to be my favorite classical, a really great guitar.

If I am ever in the Canary Islands, or in rural Spain near the right place, I will stop by to personally thank two well known luthiers, now retired, for the tremendous pleasure their creations have given me.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 18:52:42
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
My next guitar will be built by a luthier from this site. Simply because the guitar will
mean something to me due to the connection. I have several guitars from well
known shops, but they may as well say Honda, Ford, or Toyota on the label. They
all work well, but they have no soul. :)

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 20:42:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to tele) 
Wow, finally a new un explored topic. So let me get this right, we can choose either a handmade by a single luthier instrument, or, a factory instrument, or....just a get a conde and be done with it?

Oh wait I forgot the 4th option.... buy ANY old guitar and have it fine tuned by some guy I can't remember....

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 22:29:29
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

buy ANY old guitar and have it fine tuned by some guy I can't remember....


I have a crap Manuel Raimundo Valencia guitar but the person before me had German Vasquez give it some love and it plays like butter! Sounds decent to me too...........Living near GSI and Trilogy I've been lucky enough to play a lot of different guitars to compare....

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 22:38:50
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Leñador) 
Handmade eh ?

I must say I love the handmade sound.

It is perhaps not as immediate as the sound produced by the voice but then again there is something very very special about what happens when the hand, or finger or thumb, really becomes expressive.

So why not pick up an instrument, any instrument but probably a guitar, and search for that HANDMADE sound.

Of course the instrument itself may help or hinder. And the luthier has no small part in that.

But let us remember that the sound will always be handmade and the luthier has perhaps less responsibility for the RANGE and VARIETY of sound produced than do the hands themselves.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 22:50:23
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Leñador) 
I was reading your post diagonally and what I got was:

"Crap guitar. The person before me, give it some love, butter.. Trilogy!"



It made sense to me but then I read again.



BTW, nice thread on onanism!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 22:54:05
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

BTW, nice thread on onanism!


EXACTLY.

Make the best of the tool you have.


D.
(no offence intended Andy, this was nice idea for a thread guess my point is a little off topic, but the responsibility for the sound should always be accepted by the player. And that is probably even more critical when testing/choosing and instrument.)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 23:04:51
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Andy Culpepper) 
quote:

onanism

I'm embarrassed, I had to google this. Someone from Portugal knows english better then I do. Los Angeles Unified School District has failed me again! lolol

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 23:15:45
 
Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha


But let us remember that the sound will always be handmade and the luthier has perhaps less responsibility for the RANGE and VARIETY of sound produced than do the hands themselves.

D.


Undoubtedly the touch is the main factor.
But when you can make a guitar of shallow properties sing, an instrument of complex sound potential will still yield even better.

And then there´s that self-enhancing case when a guitar plays and sounds so good that it inspires you, which again makes you exploit even more of your skills and the instruments capacity.

What power tools are concerned I don´t mind their application at all and welcome the relief for the luthier.
In the same time, when I know that there´s been a lot of handcrafting I will appreciate the dedication while looking at the product or handling it.
It´s an abstract value.

... Man, I ´ve seen a report on a beautiful 400 m² apartment in a German castle ( for only 1 mio bucks).
And I thought like "Wow!!" while looking at those opulently rich carvings everywhere. Stunning works that must have taken ages to make, and unspeakable patience.

Ruphus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 23:18:20
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Why buy a handmade guitar? (in reply to Leñador) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

onanism

I'm embarrassed, I had to google this. Someone from Portugal knows english better then I do. Los Angeles Unified School District has failed me again! lolol


Onanism strikes you as an English word ?

I suspect that the Iberian peninsula has had more jesuits than California.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2014 23:21:06
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.