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RE: I have a preference for por arriba.
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krichards
Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England
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 RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to El Burdo)
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quote:
I thought I'd volunteer some help to Kevin in terms of the harmony going on.
I appreciate your efforts to help me, but actually, this is all getting way too technical for me.
quote:
just tell them you are playing "por Arriba"!
if they don't know what that is it's the flamenco "key" of E Phrygian with E major home chord (ie. the music returns, or resolves, to E major).
it's not C major or A minor. If it was the "home" or tonic chord would be C maj or A min and the music would return/resolve to that chord.
it's not written down, ie. flamenco composers don't (or only very rarely in a few cases) "write" their music. When it is written down it is written without sharps or flats, but that still does not mean it is in C major or A minor, because the "home" or tonic chord is E major.
Mark; this makes sense to me, and is at the right level for me to understand, thankyou.
.
quote:
In fact back to the different discipline thing....flamenco has it's OWN LANGUAGE ...hence the title of the thread. "por Arriba"....it has a very specific meaning to the masters of flamenco.
Ricardo; I do agree about Flamenco having its own language. if that wasn't the case I would never have got into a muddle in the first place.
Well guys, please continue your debate about the finer points, but don't do it on my account. My brain hurts now and I need a rest.
I'll calm down with some Soleares practice I think.
_____________________________
Kevin Richards
http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 12:49:18
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to El Burdo)
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quote:
This is just wrong. In this case it comes from both A harmonic minor and A melodic minor which are scales (and to me, harmonic environments, even though one was derived to act melodically).
I know Guitarbuddha said this and burdo too. Well, I should have been more clear but the concept of "V7", that is the ROMAN NUMERAL usage to describe the tonal harmony function derives from the major scale. In the minor keys you have to borrow the V7 from the parallel major for the reason of needing a STRONG Dominant to tonic resolution, in doing so must also alter the melody which may or may not result in the creation of the harmonic minor scale or melodic minor scale or even some other weird scales like double harmonic etc etc. So I was referring to the tonal harmony concept, NOT modality usage. That being, well sure you can derive "chords" from modes...but there you don't NEED Roman numerals cuz it's really just about a big 13th chord depending on your mode. In the modal world it is a huge difference between melodic or harmonic minor scales but in tonal harmony the idea of V->i is more about the resolution so both scales are looked at as alterations to the normal flow of the music, not the BASIS of the music. Hope that makes sense.
quote:
I assume the Eb is only played melodically and not as part of the chord as it clashes with the E at the top? So, I'm asking if the aug6 is actually played? I don't know, as that is about playing and I'm WELL back down the line there.
Well, the point I was making is that this weirdo secondary dominant function description of western tonal harmony falls directly in line with what's going on in the flamenco world. Of course flamencos don't think about it that way or deliberately use those theory tools, so it is pointless to spell out all the examples as if it's mozart analysis class. Secondary dominant function in normal major key songs is something like this: ii-V-I is well known. So if you alter the ii you can get II....again this is borrowing from the other major scale as as I referred to earlier to tonicize V. So you now have V/V--> V. So this idea is happening with the aug6 chord. Except it't VI7-->V.....it's a secondary dominant resolution. IT IS A RESOLUTION. period. But in the bigger picture we are looking for the final I chord....in flamenco the V IS THE TONIC....in other words you have to adjust your Roman numerals, and accept this type of harmonic movement to be strong AND final. II7-->I. That type of Roman numeral usage is not done in western theory classes, but MUST be understood in the flamenco context if we are going to continue with his idea of describing the music in theory terms.
quote:
I think all this SUPER resolved, very very wrong stuff is just a hysterical attempt to differentiate your passion from everything else by giving it different parameters.
Hysterical? Glad you think it's so funny. Well, when I first heard flamenco I was also scratching my head about these pieces "Hanging on the V7b9" like so many other western eared folk. I changed my view after I got quite deeply involved in the music. There is an other dimension to the music and begs for a better description, if one truly wants to relate what is going on to an individual coming from another discipline. Again I recommend skipping all this translation and doing it the spanish way....do re mi, por medio por arriba, etc. But right off the bat there are transcriptions and there might be a better or worse way to do it. (as can be seen in practice).
quote:
You don't know what I hear so shouldn't be telling me that I don't hear the home chord or the cadence into it. I have described a framework and have never said that it is unacceptable to sit on chords that are not the tonic of the relevant scale or harmonic environment
I have repeatedly said I think you know it "intuitively" and that you hear it but can't call it what it is. That means I KNOW you can hear it just fine, but the terminology (I said language you were using) coming from your background is the issue I have. You call it "homechord" but refuse to admit it is TONIC. That's all this argument is about. I am saying you just have to get used to the idea your intuition is RIGHT. It is home, it is Tonic, it is resolved, it is all about it.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 13:07:35
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Well, I should have been more clear but the concept of "V7", that is the ROMAN NUMERAL usage to describe the tonal harmony function derives from the major scale.
Ricardo
Here is the one appropriate to the ascending form of the Harmonic minor.
iMaj7, ii-7b5,bIIIMaj7,iv-7,V7,VIMaj7,viidim7. (upper case numerals indicate major and lower case minor)
The V is dominant, and the thirteenth of that chord is flat.
If the thirteenth were natural (as in the farruca example I mentioned above) then I feel it would be more appropriate to say that there was a borrowing going on from the major.
I wholeheartedly agree that a lot of jazz guys start out by hearing the phrygian tonic as the dominant of the subsequent minor chord. When they do more listening they fix it. In fact there was a guitarist who posted some stuff with his brother on sax (I think) and it was clear that woodwind player was hearing it 'wrong'.
But that ain't no big thing, we listen more and the penny drops. God knows some things have taken me long enough.
D.
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Date Jan. 14 2014 13:19:38
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Ricardo
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
I-Maj7, ii-7b5,III,iv-7,V7,VIMaj7,viidim7.
Well, I guess you meant i-maj7....and III+maj7..... again those harmonies are result of doing a chord scale out of the harmonic minor scale. Jazz idea mixed with classical Roman numerals. Jazz guys normally just use numbers of mode, again, as per the MAJOR scale as the basis(1,2,3,4,5,6,7). But a song or piece composed in the KEY of Aminor does not use those Roman numerals as the basis. It is more like this:
i-ii(little circle meaning diminished)-III-iv-v-VI-VII.
The line through the circle would be half dim seventh for the ii chord. But The III chord, the v chord and the VII change due to the V7 chord being stolen from I-ii-iii-IV-V7-iv-vii(little circle)....the V7 necessarily raises the tonic of the VII chord so it become diminished....and the only fully diminished 7th in the chord scale. The III chord gets the raised 5th and becomes augmented.
Melodic minor is a different animal. THinking classical it's really just about the V7....raise 6 and 7 (the 7th and 9th of the V chord) both coming from major key to avoid the tricky aug 2 between 6 and 7. Point is strong tonic i. In jazz it's way more interesting of course as we look at the chord scale instead. But again, no need for the Roman numerals then as we are thinking MODALLY now.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 13:39:27
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: I have a preference for por arriba. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
I-Maj7, ii-7b5,III,iv-7,V7,VIMaj7,viidim7.
Well, I guess you meant i-maj7....and III+maj7
 , well I fixed one while you were typing.
It may be the case that the way you suggest is how some jazzers look at it. And I suspect that that is why lots of minor key standards sound terrible in the wrong hands and not very minor at all. There are however a few hundreds of years of history of tonal analysis which admits that minor keys have their own identity.
A minor key is different from a major in precisely the way that you (rightly) insist por Arriba is. Trying to explain it as a subset of major harmony has the sun moving round the earth again.
Here is some very minor harmony.
Em,F#7b9,F#halfdiminihed/B7b9 back to Em
The F#7 is not presaging Bmajor but is in fact 'borrowed' from the key of B minor and this can easily be felt as the best simplest and most natural scale to play over it is B harmonic minor. Also the dominant chords have flat ninths which are absent from the parallel major scales.
D.
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 14 2014 13:44:17
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