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Juan Martin vs PdL
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Ricardo
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 Juan Martin vs PdL
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I was having a discussion on a non-flamenco (but) music related board and got on the topic of Paco with some guy on there. Just thought I'd share this guys comments about Juan Martin vs PdL, since Mr Martin can be a hot topic at times:
quote:
Well, although I'm not a musician, I know something about flamenco, and although he also did some pop records with electric instruments backing him (like Paco has done), Juan Martin seems to me to be far more of a flamenco purist. The purists of flamenco music (or so I've heard) often have a higher regard for Juan than Paco, even if he is less famous. Even when Juan has experimented with marrying it with other things, like ancient arabic music, or composed lengthy suites of tunes, he has kept the music to a strict flamenco form. To my ears, even when Paco plays guitar according to a strict flamenco form, the way he uses backing musicians often makes the music not 'feel' like flamenco at all and, therefore, it can sound soulless and the whole point of the music is gone. Juan has very rarely been guilty of that sin ('Through a Moving Window', recorded 1988, would be his cardinal offence!) and his playing seems to play more attention to the 'storytelling quality' which is fundamental to all forms of flamenco expression, guitar playing, singing etc. etc.
I don't think I underrate Paco. I have several of his records, including a few old ones, and I think highly of him. My feeling as to why Paco hasn't done as much to expand the horizons of flamenco music as Juan is that Juan not only accepts the idea of flamenco as a way of life, but has studied the culture to such a degree, he seems able to raise flamenco musical expression to new artistic heights. Witness his Andalucian Suites album of 1990, or even the old Solo Album of 1985...they're like some pure flamenco poetry. Paco may have been the first to popularize rhumbas and Latin American forms in flamenco, but I've yet to hear something from him that has the same level of musical sensitivity to it as what Juan has done on recordings like these. To my ears, Juan has a greater capacity for expression on the guitar, and can play with finesse as well as he can with passion. But, as you say, this is largely a question of likes/dislikes...
Just thought I'd share someone's point of view that is not really a flamenco guitar aficionado or student. I disagree with the guy of course!  But no one can deny that Juan Martin has had a strong influence on the listening public.
Ricardo
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Date Nov. 22 2005 18:43:31
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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Well, now I'm going to get lynched 
I'm not going to discuss PDL versus J. Martín. I agree, thats waste of time.
I must say though, that this guy (who wrote the text) IMHO is right in some things. Even though I'm a big fan of Paco, and listen to him a lot, I must admit that I agree in some of the things this guy says. There are MANY songs on various Paco albums that I consider Cheesy and bad taste. Paco always play very well and is very inspired and take everything to another level, BUT....... The arangements...Sometimes I just can't stand it. 
Well. That's it, and that's me.... I now have to expect a sudden and violent death 
Nice playing
Anders
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Date Nov. 23 2005 7:09:56
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Jon Boyes
Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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There is some amazing bitterness in some parts of the flamenco community over Juan.
..he ain't really Spanish, his accent is fake, plays badly, doesn't deserve his success, there are hundreds of fantastic players in Spain who are starving who deserve greater recognition etc ..(that last one I read recently on alt.flamenco, the usenet spam wasteland where you take your life in your own hands if you dare mention Juan or the Gipsy Kings).
Let's face it, he was in the right place at the right time and capitalised on it to make a living and who can blaim him for that? If you get voted by Guitar Player magazine readers as one of the top players in the world, you don't keep that a secret you put it in your bio whether you really believe it or not. Doesn't make you big headed, it makes you shrewd.
He is, by all acounts (he is a friend of a friend) a really nice guy & totally down to earth.
His early tuition materials were/are excellent, I think 'El Arte' is a real classic book stuffed full of useful info, even if it is just the tip of the iceberg. For decades there was basically nothing else available, this was groundbreaking stuff.
Anyone seriously into flamenco knows where he 'fits in' as a player in the grand scheme of things, IMO, we don't really need to discuss it.
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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
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Date Nov. 23 2005 8:55:43
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Guest
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Anyone seriously into flamenco knows where he 'fits in' as a player in the grand scheme of things, IMO, we don't really need to discuss it.
I agree completely
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Date Nov. 23 2005 10:27:39
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Guest
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to el ted)
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ive seen juan martin twice, and basically seeing him the first time turned me to doing flamenco, im personnally am not a big fan of paco, most of the time i listen to ramon montaya, nino ricardo and sabicas, and any old style stuff i can get my hands on. i find some of pdls compostions lacking in bite, they sound somewhat air fairy with pipes and other isitruments brought in, and its sounds at times more jazzy than flamenco.
i think people should make a disticntion between what is nuevo flamenco and old style playing. old style playing for me is about palying something simple, but at the same time profound.
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Date Nov. 23 2005 11:51:26
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Guest
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Guest)
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This thread to me is really interesting......now lets imagine if Juan Martin would have accompanied Camaron instead of PDL. How would those albums have sounded??
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Date Nov. 23 2005 16:39:18
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Guest
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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I've been keeping up with this thread, thinking I had it all figured out until about 30minutes ago. My original contention was that I preferred Juan Martin/Traditional for basically two reasons: 1. I like the traditional sound, 2. Juan Martin's music sounds achievable to me as a musician. That's not to say I don't like PDL, but let's face it - I don't think I'll be playing a majority of his stuff in the near future if at all.
Like I said, I had all this figured out until about 30 minutes ago, when I was at the local entertainment video/music store renting some movies for the family to watch over the holidays, and thought I would go through the CD section all the while thinking in the back of my mind: "I know this little backwoods town isn't going to have any flamenco". I know this because I've looked before. But, to my surprise, they had one. It was a used disc that someone had traded back to the store. It's a recording of PDL from 1965 that he did with Ricardo Modrego titled "12 Canciones De Garcia Lorcia". This disc is very traditional sounding, and as usual displays PDL awesome talent. What can I say, PDL is da man! The disc is awesome. Exactly what I love about flamenco. Anyway, just my two cents.
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Date Nov. 23 2005 18:54:21
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luke.park
Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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hi there, i am a flamenco guitarist and am 16 years old. i am deeply into flamenco and this topic is interesting! i have learnt with Juan's books and have met and spoke with him and couple of times, great guy.  however, i believe it completely depends where your personal passion lies. if it is with the traditional flamenco that is adapted and rooted strongly with the moors, then Juan Martin is incomparable with the work he has done and produces. purist wise, it is exactly what you want to hear and with the passion. i also believe he has a dominance of the guitar which i aspire for.
however, i have recently bought pdl's new album cositas buenas and after disliking it at first, i love it now. the more i listen the more i empathise with the way he experiments and the sound he produces. you know it is truly his and it is genuine as it keeps the flamenco feel of passion and genuineness. its great. it has also led me to getting into other nuevo artists such as tomatito.
i have read a lot of flamenco forums in the past few days as i hav just stumbled across the flamenco scene on the internet and hopefully now in britain where i live as i discover pena flamenca venues where i hope to go and perform, which is interesting as i have been completely cut-off and thought i was one of few.
at the end of the day, you can say personal preference but that is where flamenco is so interesting. when someone plays flamenco and produces something as paco de lucia and as juan martin as, they are expressing themselves. that is the utmost thing that we must take into consideration and respect about any flamenco artist even if you completely hate the sound they are producing. they are still expressing themselves, it is an inevitability of flamenco. that's what i have realised when listening to cositas buenas. this must be admired and respected.
at least, thats my personal interpretation so far, i completely understand it may change and may completely oppose what others think. respect to those who can express themselves through flamenco i think, even if you dont completely like it!
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Date Dec. 29 2005 16:45:07
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luke.park
Posts: 114
Joined: Dec. 29 2005
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to flyeogh)
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quote:
A big welcome luke
thanks for the welcome, i can see this forum is gonna come in great handy for my journey!
i live in ashford in kent, and as you said feel isolated cos there's little if no flamencos around!  however, lewes, near brighton has some flamenco activity which i have recently found out and will be taking a trip down there soon. there's a nice little backstreet guitarrareo who's hard to find called pablo riquena whom my teacher has recently purchased a guitar from.
my teacher is john musker, he teaches pupils around the ashford area electric, blues, he is a very versatile teacher. however, we have both come across flamenco together. i started four years ago with him at 12 and we decided that we'd give it a go. since we've been captured by it. he gets lessons with a man called chris in london whom i can get some details if you would like. john teaches me his new stuff he has learnt himself and from london and we both go along like that. i am constantly teaching myself new material and composing when i can to keep pushing my personal development.
we both have felt that we are pretty isolated which is true as most people play strictly classical and i have known some people to turn their noses up at flamenco- idiots! but some appreciate it very much which is good! i work a lot in bars and resaurants to earn a bit of money, and may perhaps be joining an agency soon which will involve getting more flamenco contacts
it is as you say vital to have this forum and keep in contact with others, its very amazing for me to come across it and my teacher john will be just as amazed and intrigued. i have recently got in contact with the management of tomatito who have given me these internet sites and refernces, which was nice of them!
i knowe this is what i want to do in life and the bar has been risen by what seems miles but i am determined to do it. thing is, ive never been to spain. sad eh? i am in my element just listening to it in the comfort of my ashford home, id probably die of happiness if i went to live with the spanish gypsy culture!!
there are pena flamenco venues scattered here and there, ive found one in lewes (near brighton) at the pub and there's one in bar andalucia in london where you can become a member and go to perform there. they hold meetings the second sunday of every month except august. the next meeting is 8th jan which i am hopefully gona go to!
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Date Dec. 30 2005 11:31:54
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Ricardo)
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I am further confused as I did a web search for a biography of JM and found this at wikipedia.org
quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Martin
Juan Cristóbal Martín (born Málaga, 1948) is a Spanish flamenco guitarist.
Juan Martin started learning the guitar at the age of six. He played in clubs in Málaga, Seville and Granada. In his early twenties he moved to Madrid to study under Nino Ricardo and Paco de Lucía. One of his first recordings was "Picasso Portraits" (1981). Each section is a depiction of a painting by Pablo Picasso. The compositions were by Juan, and the guests include Simon Phillips (session musician for Mike Oldfield and many others), most of the Gordon Giltrap Band, and some members of the Jeff Beck Band. Although it was not released until the 1990s, he recorded a track with Rory Gallagher in 1984 (on the album "Wheels Within Wheels"). The same track has Richard Thompson and David Lindley on it. He recorded with Herbie Hancock in 1987 and has played on stage with Miles Davis. His flamenco guitar method book "El Arte Flamenco de Guitarra" has been widely bootlegged around the world including one edition with a Chinaman on the cover and Juan pictured on the inside, almost like a model.
He divides his time between Malaga and London. One of his sons, Calos, learned the guitar, but gave it up for drum and bass. Understandably, Juan was very sad about this. Juan Martin has been voted in the top three guitarists in the world in ther magazine "Guitar Player". He has an English wife, Helen. They have a family business called Flamencovision. His latest albums have flamenco dancers on the soundtrack.
Perhaps they are complaining that is accent is Spanish is fake and he's trying to sound more Flamenco?
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Date Apr. 2 2006 22:51:31
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Florian
Posts: 9282
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia
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RE: Juan Martin vs PdL (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)
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quote:
Juan Martin has done a great deal to help others to learn flamenco. That is not true of everyone who plays flamenco guitar.
Thats true Thomas you are right most people i know didnt start flamenco cause of Juan Martin tho, most peaople started cause, Gipsy Kings (funny as it might sound) Paco Pena, Paco, Otmar even etc.
But Juan is the guy who's book most people i know started learning flamenco with.
With that beeing said, no matter what he has done for Flamenco when he puts a solo cd out all that is out the window, he just gets judged on the cd.
If its a brilliant cd by all means great, it its bad whatever, my point is the fact that hes a nice person and made the most comprehensive beginner Flamenco guitar book shouldnt mean that we have to like his music. U can respect him, but personally musically and technically i wouldnt even use him in the same sentence with Paco.
or the next 50 - 70 guitarists down the list after Paco.
Vicente AMigo, Tomatito, NIno de Pura, Jeronimo, Juan Carlos ROmero, Paco Jarana, Pedro Serra, Diego del Morao, Nino Josele, Manolo Sanlucar, Gerardo Nunez,El Viejin, Rafel Riqueny, Moraito, Oscar herrero,Grisha, Paco pena, Rmon, jimenez, Serranito,Quique Paredes ,Pepe Habichuela,Paco Serrano,Juan Manuel Canizares, Juan Carmona BORBOREO, second tought i think it would be quicker to name the lesser players.
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Date Apr. 3 2006 16:21:16
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