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britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

Questions about "string height&... 
I've been reading a lot of stuff on how string height affects action and playability, and I'm interested in checking the string height on a few of my guitars, and comparing the action, sound and playability.

*Does "string height" mean just the first and sixth at the 12th fret, or also at the 1st fret?

*Is there such a thing as an "ideal" string height for a flamenco guitar and a classical?

*How to accurately measure string height, (without having any special measuring tools).

* Would High Tensions strings (ideally) require a different height than Low Tension?

* Is there any trade-off between 'optimum sound' and playability, that is affected by string height?

Lots of questions; and maybe no simple answers???

Interested to hear any thoughts, whatever. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2013 21:27:27
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy

Lots of questions; and maybe no simple answers???



I think the simple answer is measure at 12th fret from top of fret to bottom of the string and go for 2.6mm-3.4mm for the low E and slightly less for treble E. I have been doing tens of bones for saddle and nut and have ended with about 2.5 for treble and 2.8mm for optimal amount of buzz(not toomuch, also depends on the guitar). Hi tens buzz less.

String height is I think the only place with choice of strings that it's acceptable to be fussy about

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2013 22:19:37
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
-String height or action is usually defined as the height between the 12th fret and the high and low e strings
Nut slot height and neck relief should always be checked first since they affect the 12th fret measurement
-Classical action is often specified as 4.0 to 3.0 and Flamenco at 3.0 to 2.5
this will be affected by your playing style and sound preferences and the amount of neck relief
-A card type action gauge from stewmac is cheap and accurate or you can use a steel rule
-High tension strings may allow a lower string height, but there is no standard in between manufacturers as to what constitutes high tension. D addario high tension strings are still less tension than savarez normal.
-String height will affect how hard you can play without buzz and hence Volume potential
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2013 23:05:13
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
I don't like when my strings get too high. I feel that they perform better with a clean head.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 29 2013 23:52:30
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
brit guy, to add one more variable--string height at the saddle. from posts i have read in the luthier section the height of the strings at the saddle should be lower by a couple of milimeters for a flamenco guitar than a classical. as to measuring the heights, a small ruler with super fine demarcations (1/32 or 1/64 inches) can be purchased for a couple of dollars. feeler guages work for the nut. probably the most expensive "tool" needed for many folks are magnifying glasses--the kind sold at the drug stores. as for heights, at the saddle i have read 8-10mm is in a good range, 3.1 and 2.7mm (low e and high e respectively) for the 12th fret (adjusted up or down according to the player's preference) and at the nut, 0.052 inches for the high e string and 0.056 inches for the low e string at the first fret (this is what kenny hill uses).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2013 9:49:41
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

*Is there such a thing as an "ideal" string height for a flamenco guitar and a classical?


Yes. The ideal stringheight for flamencos and classicals is the one that suits the player. And thats it.
Its all about taste and playing style. Some love buzzing. Some hate it. Some play very hard , some a lot softer. Some have a very "flat" flamenco tecnique with shord hard strokes and some a technique that is a lot "rounder and with bigger movements.
You can play with the lowest stringheight over the fingerboard if you play soft and have a very controled "flat" technique with short strokes going as parallel to the soundboard as possible. But it can easily end up being bedroom or noodling flamenco and that doesnt work very well in the "real" world

A standard flameco setup is 3mm/2,5mm stringheight 6th/1st string over 12th fret. meassured from top of fret to bottom of string. Some need a higher setup and some will compromise volume and projection in order to have it lower.
To this you add a stringheight at the bridge between 6th string and soundboard of 7 - 9mm (10mm is to high for most players and 9 is at the very limit for most)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 30 2013 10:36:17
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
These are all good questions.

There is no ideal, only personal preferences based on personal technique/attack.

String height is usually measured at the 12th fret, but that tells nothing about what could be going on at the rest of the fingerboard due to relief that may have been carved there.

Even to accurately measure the height at the 12th fret is difficult. I made a series of feeler gauges out of scrap ebony. I sanded them on a thickness sander so that they go from 2.0 to 3.0 mm in 0.1-mm increments. I find that the best way to measure the string height is to use the feeler gauges while watching the string to see if it gets shifted. If I can't insert the gauge without shifting the string, I go to the next one down.

There is sort of a right height for the strings at the nut and once it is achieved it is left alone even when the saddle is adjusted.

There definitely can be a trade off sometimes between optimum sound and playability. Sometimes there is and sometimes not.

Higher tension strings might warrant lower action. It depends on the guitar and the player.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 3:52:58
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
I think it's ok to mention that the "relief" of the neck and stiffness of the top affect the amount of buzz, as does the tension of the strings(not all medium tension strings for example have same tension)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 10:42:48
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to keith) 
quote:

add one more variable--string height at the saddle. from posts i have read in the luthier section the height of the strings at the saddle should be lower by a couple of milimeters for a flamenco guitar than a classical


Why is the lower height at the saddle so critical? Just to facilitate resting the thumb on the soundboard?

What am I missing here?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 11:50:12
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: britguy
Why is the lower height at the saddle so critical? Just to facilitate resting the thumb on the soundboard?

What am I missing here?

The golpes (amongst other things).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 15:04:04
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
Basically because you´re supposed to be in contact with the soundboard as much as possible.
remember, playing flaenco guitar is playing the guitar and a drum at the same time.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 15:13:39
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
quote:

I made a series of feeler gauges out of scrap ebony. I sanded them on a thickness sander so that they go from 2.0 to 3.0 mm in 0.1-mm increments. I find that the best way to measure the string height is to use the feeler gauges while watching the string to see if it gets shifted.


The luthier I was originally chatting with about this subject had a small plunger-type tool he used to accurately measure the string height. He used the tool to push the string down 'til it touched the fret, and then read off the depth on a small gauge scale.

He did say the name, but I've forgotten, and don't want to bother him by calling and asking. Does anybody know what this tool is, and how much it costs?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 19:03:12
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
Jeff has already adviced you to get one of these. I totally agree with him. They just work. They are fast and cheap:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Straightedges/String_Action_Gauge.html

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 19:12:00
 
Jeff Highland

 

Posts: 401
Joined: Mar. 5 2010
From: Caves Beach Australia

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
I have one of the plunger type digital readout things
I no longer use it, it was too hard to get consistent measurements due to difficulty in holding it steady and having to gauge exactly when it touched the string.
I really liked the idea of having a digital readout to make it easier for my eyes, but in practice it did not work for me.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 19:32:06

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
Deleted.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 31 2013 20:56:31
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
if you are willing to invest 22 american cents and a couple of drops of superglue you can make your own feeler gauge to get you to the ballpark. two american pennies adds up to 3.1mm (1.55mm for the penny) and two american dimes add up to 2.7mm (1.35mm for the dime)--per the u.s. mint).

or you can spend a little more and get one of these

http://www.elmerguitar.com/products/feeler-gauge-74.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2013 6:27:35
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to keith) 
quote:

if you are willing to invest 22 american cents and a couple of drops of superglue you can make your own feeler gauge


Neat idea, Keith. Not sure if our Canadian penny (recently discontinued) and our dimes are the same thickness, but I have an old Vernier gauge (inches only) I can check with.

(Now that I think of it, I could use that old Vernier to make a couple of wood or plastic feeler gauges?). Why didn't I think of that before?

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2013 12:20:34
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
I would of thought a fruit-farmer would have a set of old spark plug feeler gauges there somewhere in the shed ...

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2013 15:08:40
 
britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to edguerin) 
quote:

would of thought a fruit-farmer would have a set of old spark plug feeler gauges there somewhere in the shed ...


Of course! Several of them. . .

But no way would I want to risk using those dirty greasy tools on my precious guitars. . .

I think Keiths 'cent and dime ' idea might be much better for my purposes.

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2013 21:21:15
 
edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
I actually bought a cheap set a a DIY store for the purpose ...

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 16:10:02
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

Why is the lower height at the saddle so critical? Just to facilitate resting the thumb on the soundboard?

What am I missing here?


Not everyone thinks it is. I have been playing for 45 years and do not find it important unless the saddle is really, really high. It does make it easier to do "martillo" golpes, where you hit the golpeador above the strings with the back of the fingernail on the way to hitting the bass strings with that same back of fingernail. Some people find that it can be problematic having the saddle very low, because it's hard to get fingers in place to do free stroke. I wish people wouldn't refer to having the saddle low as low action, though, because this makes things confusing.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 22:43:11
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to constructordeguitarras) 
I find it problematic if the height from the top is too low as it makes it more uncomfortable to put the thumb under the low E string when doing some of the rasgueados. 8-9mm is best for me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2013 22:58:49
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
quote:

Not everyone thinks it is. I have been playing for 45 years and do not find it important unless the saddle is really, really high. It does make it easier to do "martillo" golpes, where you hit the golpeador above the strings with the back of the fingernail on the way to hitting the bass strings with that same back of fingernail. Some people find that it can be problematic having the saddle very low, because it's hard to get fingers in place to do free stroke. I wish people wouldn't refer to having the saddle low as low action, though, because this makes things confusing.


My recomendations come from letting good local Andalucian flamenco players test and comment my instruments.
In the case of stringheight at the bridge, something around 80% find that 9mm is to high, that 8mm is ok and that 7 - 7,5mm is just right. Most of them, the first thing they do when they check a guitar is to look at the stringheight at the bridge. If its to high, they comment on that before they play. And some almost refuse to test a guitar that has much more than "cigaret" stringheight at the bridge. Most of them are in constant contact with the soundbord with one or more fingers except when doing arpeggios.
They have been brougt up with flamenco guitars and have been told their whole life that things have to be a certain way and so they have gotten used to guitars with some special. physical characteristics.
Funny enough, VERY few found that 3mm stringheight 6th string at the 12th fret was to high.

Besides that, I find it to be totally correct to include saddle height in the term "action height" (being low or high) On flamenco guitars it is such an important issue and it goes together ia a complete setup pack with terms like relief, stringheight at 12th fret and stringheight at the bridge.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 8:25:47
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to Anders Eliasson) 
quote:

Besides that, I find it to be totally correct to include saddle height in the term "action height" (being low or high) On flamenco guitars it is such an important issue and it goes together ia a complete setup pack with terms like relief, stringheight at 12th fret and stringheight at the bridge.


I agree with you, Anders, that the string height at the bridge is important to some or many or most flamenco guitarists and should be specified and given attention.

"Action" means "movement" and we move the strings when we press them down to fret them. (The "action" of a piano is the ease of hitting the strings with the hammer by pressing the key.) That's why the term "action" seems appropriate to me at the fingerboard. We don't move the strings up and down at the bridge, so it doesn't make sense to me to talk about the "action" there.

I wish there were a better, separate, term to use because I ran into trouble years ago with a client who kept telling me the action had to be low. Later, after the guitar was built, I found out he was only talking about the saddle.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2013 14:26:24
 
Rosiec7

 

Posts: 5
Joined: Nov. 3 2013
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
This is kind of interesting, I've had a lot of problems with pain in my fingers playing flamenco to the point where I just could not play, started of with HT strings then MT, but still after 20 minutes of playing, the pain in my joints starts again and I got to the point of giving up,
A friend suggested using low tension strings at least while i,m learning ,yes they sound a little quiet but I can practice for as long as I like with no problems.

Now for the interesting bit, I started to think about the action and setup more, the bridge was far to high strings almost 6mm of 12 fret so lowered down to 3mm for both Es filing bone down just to the point of very slight buzz and sounds fine, still using low tension strings as my guide. thinking when I go back to hard or medium, things will sound just great but not the case, so a day of experimenting the HT strings and mt 's buzz like crazy totally unplayable at this 3mm -12 fret setup and I was really expecting the opposite to happen any thoughts.

D'Addario HT & MT strings
Augistine low tension strings
Vicente Sanchis A1
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 0:03:13
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to Rosiec7) 
There are a lot of questions here so its difficult to know where to start.
But, basically you have ended up with a very buzzy guitar?

I think you should let a luthier take a look and get a proper setup done. Its difficult to advise anything else without seeing it.

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Kevin Richards

http://www.facebook.com/#!/kevin.richards.1048554
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 7:38:11
 
Rosiec7

 

Posts: 5
Joined: Nov. 3 2013
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to krichards) 
thank you Kevin; will take your advice, will google for luthier in Surrey UK,
but still scratching my head about this one, replaced low tension strings and all's fine regarding buzzing with low 3mm action on 12 fret \ 9mm at bridge\ 12mm at sound hole; ok it;s not perfect .
so using a steel strait edge from nut to bridge looking side on I get that sinking feeling at the sound hole, but surely that would not be the reason I have problems with buzzing using High tension strings or Mt strings on the same setup and not getting it with low tension strings. hope I,m explaining things ok don't want to drag it out but do find it fascinating,

as I said before I find it far more comfortable to play low tension strings for now regarding the problems I have with my hands, and I'll shall keep calm and carry on, many thanks .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 19:11:58
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to Rosiec7) 
Maybe you get too much neck relief when using HT strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 20:00:59
 
Rosiec7

 

Posts: 5
Joined: Nov. 3 2013
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
Hi Rui ,can you explain neck relief, fret board is ebony and flat for want of a more technical term and frets are level, are you talking about concave or convex bend in neck under tension.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 20:26:35
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Questions about "string hei... (in reply to britguy) 
If it is flat and the frets are levelled, that cant be the problem.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2013 20:32:05
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