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RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
quote:
ORIGINAL: vigrond
In other words, why do we use a G# in the E chord instead of a regular G (as it is in the E Phrygian scale)
Is it just for "color", or is there a specific theory answer?
Music theory either succeeds in describing a situation or it doesn't. If the theory you are trying to learn from leads you to expect the 'wrong' notes then it is either wrong, or you have failed to understand it.
In either case you need a teacher to help who has a lot of experience of different musics and the 'theorIES' that accurately explains them.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
Flamenco uses E phyrgian dominant a lot (G#) which is why you see an E major instead of E minor as it would be in standard E phyrgian/C major. As you progress you'll also see G# and G being played in scale work.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to tri7/5)
Occasionally in solea you can hear phrygian and phrygian dominant used together. E major is part of the dominant and more common in solea. You can hear e minor for example in paco de lucia's "plaza alta" among others
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From: The South Ireland
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
its just because it comes from the A minor scale thats all
E Phrygian --3rd degree of the C major scale A minor the relative minor ( of Cmajor ) ..remember theres a harmonic minor ( A harmonic minor ) , and theres a melodic .. and a natural ...
but with the G# it does make it a dominant scale ....
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
I was wondering about that the other day and I read the answers here but still don't understand. If someone could please explain further, that would be helpful.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
1. Make theory out of the music.
If you choose this path, you'll grab traditional theory and apply it to how flamenco works. If you have a solid foundation in how dominant - tonic relationships work you'll be able to swallow all those "key changes" or whatever you want to call those "inconsistencies".
2. Make music out of the theory.
Grab traditional theory, try to relate everything to one key, add a bunch of exceptions and end up with something too theoretical and not very useful.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
Hi Romb, truly awful video, wrong headed and banal in every way.
C
G7 C
dm G7 C
D7 G7 C continue stepping back one step at a time along the cycle of fifths and seeing if you like the sound of making a minor chord a seventh.
A diatonic minor chord can be replaced by a seventh chord in some musics and will make the arrival of the next chord more emphatic if done correctly. An arbitrary desparate attempt at variety such as adding an unresolved suspension to a tonic minor will just dissipate harmonic momentum.
I guess it has as much to do with flamenco as you have patience to find out.
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
quote:
ORIGINAL: vigrond
Been studying music theory for the last couple weeks
Today I'm working on La Juderia by Juan Serrano. It is a Soleares in E Phrygian
My understanding is E Phrygian is just C Major scale with the root transposed to E.
Looking at the Soleares chord progressions, there is a good use of the E Major chord
But according to "proper" chord progressions in the C Major scale, it should be E Minor. (Following the major pattern I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim))
My question is why do, in soleares, why don't we use a E minor chord instead of an E major?
In other words, why do we use a G# in the E chord instead of a regular G (as it is in the E Phrygian scale)
Is it just for "color", or is there a specific theory answer?
What you are learning sounds like "modes" or types of scales. People wrongly refer to flamenco forms such as solea or siguiriya buleria etc as in phrygian MODE....they are not really. They are IN a phrygian KEY of sorts, not simply phrygian or phrygian dominant. If you think about MINOR keys, you find several types of chords and scales, not only one. Modal music necessarily uses a single scale called "mode whatever". But flamenco treats forms as keys NOT simple modes. So you have accidentals against the key signature etc just like in a minor key. But it is also not correct to say that Solea is in A minor, nor "borrowing" from A minor. Farruca and some bulerias might be in key of A minor, but solea is NOT. Even though they share all the chords and scales and key signature. So what exactly makes the distinction between a buleria in A minor from a buleria "por arriba"?
The answer is THE RHYTHM. It's a darn shame how music theory tends to ignore the importance of rhythm when relating the purpose of chords and scales. The phrasing makes all the distinction.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
David et al - I still don't get it. Does not seem like a bit of explanation is going to be typed or possibly going to help. Might as well just stick to playing rather than trying to figure out why something is being played.
quote:
So what exactly makes the distinction between a buleria in A minor from a buleria "por arriba"?
The answer is THE RHYTHM.
Aren't they both bulerias and thus both have the same rhythm?
E7- F6- G7/F6- E7 One compas Por arriba(three beats between dashes).
Am-E7-E7-Am. One compas Am. Here is another in Am
E7-E7-Am-Am.
Note that you could map one onto the other. Does that make them the same ? Well play and see. If you can't hear the difference then you need to work on your ear.
Rather than give in Ramzi work from the chord sequences to the scales rather than vice versa. It is VITAL that you know where a particular chord comes in a four or eight or thirty two bar sequence.
So THINK BIGGER.eg If a singer sings a melody you might want to accompany. So you need to hear the chord sequences implicit in the melody, and you need some structure during your memorisation process. You needn't call this structure 'theory' but you will need it to be effective on the spur of the moment.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
trying to figure out why something is being played
Thats what makes you unable to understand. There's no "why", theory isnt there to make reasons for things to happen. Think of it as an outfit color matcher.
You could wear green pants, brown shirt, red hat and a pink scarf but that doesnt mean you would want to. I guess you wouldn't need any theory to decide those colors weren't for you.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to guitarbuddha)
I can indeed hear the chord changes, and I learned about harmonic rhythm now. I had never heard of the latter concept. But frankly I still don't get the general scheme of things (i.e. why solea has E instead of Em, and what "phrygian key" refers to exactly). I'll understand more with time - I am interested in these concepts, but never find time to dig into them, so whenever a discussion comes up here, I try to ask questions to learn from the back-and-forths as much as I can, but I realize I need to spend time reading texts or taking lessons from someone before I can start to put things together. At the end of the day, it won't affect whether I can play or not if I learn this stuff - I'm by no means trying to become an expert. I am interested in these topics, but knowing that right now I don't have the time to invest trying to read or educate myself more on these matters, I'll just have to keep doing what I've been doing (playing and not thinking too much about stuff) and having fun with it. I'll try to delve deeper into discussions like this in the future.
Here's buleria in A minor and por arriba:
Do these sequences of chording compas differ in harmonic rhythm?
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
So you used the classic Am E7 E7 Am turnaround. Now the other one I mentioned E7 E7 Am Am, if you loop it can seem like the same thing (shift the first one one place to the left). But they have different harmonic rhythms because where you are in the harmonic scheme depends not only on the chord you are playing but where you are in the big picture . I agree with Ricardo that most theory books fail to deal with this and lose a lot of their potential power.
You are right to assume that anything you cant play on the spot is not as useful as it should be.
The thing about the WHY is that, as in all 'science', first comes the thing itself and then the explanation. You can have as many whys as you want but the reason por Arriba has an E major is..... cause it just does.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
As I said, you're trying to explain theory with music when it should be the other way around.
It doesnt matter much how you make up the theory as long as it makes sense to you and the ones you're communicating with (there are many ways to theorize the same thing).
Asking "why is there an Emaj instead of minor" is, in my opinion, the "wrongest" question to ask.
Thinking of music as sections that can be in different keys might help you.
....and please, don't ask "why should a song have different keys on it?"
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to vigrond)
quote:
Been studying music theory for the last couple weeks
Today I'm working on La Juderia by Juan Serrano. It is a Soleares in E Phrygian
My understanding is E Phrygian is just C Major scale with the root transposed to E.
Looking at the Soleares chord progressions, there is a good use of the E Major chord
But according to "proper" chord progressions in the C Major scale, it should be E Minor. (Following the major pattern I ii iii IV V vi vii(dim))
My question is why do, in soleares, why don't we use a E minor chord instead of an E major?
In other words, why do we use a G# in the E chord instead of a regular G (as it is in the E Phrygian scale)
Is it just for "color", or is there a specific theory answer?
I'm gonna repeat what others have said, but maybe in a little different way that might help....
We use E major in Solea and not E minor, because in Solea the home chord is E major.
Do you know the story about the captain of a big ship seeing a light approaching and he radio's to tell them to get out of the way 'cos his is a really big ship? He gets a radio reply refusing and telling him to get out of the way instead.... The captain replies, "no, you get out of the way, 'cos mine is a really big ship" This goes on back and forth for a while until the guy on the radio tells the captain finally, "no, you need to change course, this is a lighthouse."
The "home" chord in Solea is an E major chord because the "home" chord in Solea is an E major chord. Listen to the music first, and then if you like you can try to use theory to explain what is going on, not the other way around.
When you try to understand flamenco music using classical harmony theory you run aground, because it doesn't fit exactly.
Listen to the music, the chords used are E major, F major, G major, A minor and C major. The "home" chord is the E major chord. Those are the chords that flamenco guitarists have used historically as the music has developed and evolved. That's just the way it is.
So a C major scale will give you the root notes of those 4 chords, and A harmonic minor scale will also give you the G# (3rd) of the E chord.
But it's not in C major or A minor..... Or E major, despite the E major "home" chord.
The two variants of E Phrygian (sometimes also called Phrygian minor as the G natural is a minor third) and E Phrygian dominant (sometimes called Phrygian major as the G# is a major third) also give you all the notes for those chords.
So when something is "in E Phrygian" you might want to think about BOTH those scales in order to "explain" all the chords.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
ORIGINAL: rombsix
David et al - I still don't get it. Does not seem like a bit of explanation is going to be typed or possibly going to help. Might as well just stick to playing rather than trying to figure out why something is being played.
quote:
So what exactly makes the distinction between a buleria in A minor from a buleria "por arriba"?
The answer is THE RHYTHM.
Aren't they both bulerias and thus both have the same rhythm?
Romby, I asked my teacher the same questions. In his simplest answer he explained the music is that way because the gypsies thought it sounded good. They weren't trying to fit it into a theory. At some level you can us theory to understand it, but just accept it as it is. For me, without very deep understanding of theory, the harmonic scale helps me bridge that gap.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to rombsix)
quote:
But frankly I still don't get the general scheme of things (i.e. why solea has E instead of Em, and what "phrygian key" refers to exactly).
Really? If you simply play some solea and change all the E chords to E minor chords your ear should tell you "why". If your question is HOW does theory explain it then that is easier, but you must accept the need for special "terminology", or random description of things that happen in music.
MODES are scales. YOu can refer to the notes with numbers. THe numbers, as per jazz theory but any equal tempered modern music can use it too like pop or classical etc, are based on the MAJOR scale. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 is the major scale. Also "do re mi fa sol la ti do" is the same thing. So a mode such as "dorian" is 1,2, b3, 4, 5 6 b7. When talking about dorian your are talking about THAT scale, no matter what your root is pitch wise. Now musically the "environment" you use that scale can be a number of things.
1. OVer a drone. A single note (number 1 of the scale obviously), over which your musical mix up of that scale makes sense.
2. Over a chord. ONly a single chord is needed, and again should contain note 1 as the bass. Most common are chords like 1 b3 5 b7, but you can have ALL the notes of the scale used in a chord such as a minor 13 chord, etc and what a 13th chord really is, is ALL the notes of the mode heard at once.
3.Over a modal VAMP. What that is, is a simple sequence of chords that imply, together, the scale involved. For Dorian, you could spell two chords , for example 1,b3,5,7 and 2,4,6,1....you can hear both are minor 7 chords and together spell the entire mode. But HARMONIC RHYTHM becomes important so as not to confuse the second chord for being the actual mode used. Another vamp for dorian could be the 1,b3,5,b7 chord and the chord based on the 4th degree, which is a DOMINANT 7TH chord in this case. The tune by Santana Oye Como Va, is a good example of that dorian vamp.
You can have more than just 2 chords for a vamp, but things start getting quite busy. For example BEAT IT by Michael Jackson has this chord sequence repeating : Em D C D. Many people would say the tune is in the key of "E minor" but the truth is this music is more simple than the key of Em. It is a modal VAMP that implies E Aeolian.
So now, what WOULD the song need to be called "Key of E minor"??? Well, it could have a number of different chords, or even other scales, but what it REALLY needs most simply is a dominant chord. B7. That would totally change the entire name game of describing the music.
So What differentiates a "Mode" from a "key" is the deliberate and necessary usage of DOMINANT resolving to TONIC chord function. Modal vamps, no matter how many chords you use, do NOT have that function UNLESS you have a 5---->1 harmonic resolution, in which case it's no longer called "a vamp", it's a "progression". It's that simple.
A flamenco palo could be in 1 of 3 possible keys. They are:
Major. Alegrias B7-E for example. Minor , Farruca B7-Em Por arriba, or spanish phrygian, Serrana or solea: F-E
Now it is confusing because one could use F-E as a MODAL vamp over E phyrigian Dominant mode. THis is borrowed from the key of Am but with no Am resolution, it is MODAL not a key. But you must stick to a scale pattern 1,b2,3,4,5,b6,b7. Flamenco music does not necessarily "vamp" in this manner. Sometimes it does but it tends to go outside of the mode and use multiple tonic to dominant relationships like any other music in a "key". If we make the E chord Em than we DO have a phrygian vamp, and in fact could use a bunch of chords that avoid the V-I move, and keep the focus on the natural phrygian mode (1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7). Again, this NOT the point of flamenco guitar. The flamenco guitar is not "vamping" for most songs, we are harmonizing the singers melody, with a focus on DOMINANT to TONIC resolutions.
IN the case of spanish phrygian, viewed as a KEY not a vamp, the dominant is F (the stronger sounding tritone sub for Bm7b5 which is the literal 5 chord from the scale). just as in major or minor keys, the dominant 7 is prefered as the pull of half steps is stronger for resolution. The spanish phrygian deal is no different. F7 is stronger, and so often used in place of the simple F-E or Fmaj7-E. The inversion of the dominant F chord is also special as we have the leading tone to tonic (Eb-E natural).
It would be fun if we could do this with other "modes"...that is find ways to tonicize the mode with altered dominants etc, but it turns out, based on our tuning system, this thing only works nice for phrygian. Also that defeats the purpose of vamping. So, I differentiate:
major key from Ionian mode (no V-I function), minor key from Aeolian mode, and spanish phrygian key from either natural phrygian or phrygian dom .....all for the same reasons.
For those that study classical theory in school, you won't hear about this fringe level spanish phrygian deal. It is only touched on with Augmented 6th chord harmony analysis of mozart era choral music. This topic addresses this F7-E deal of sp. phyrgian DIRECTLY....although it is not refered to as such. And of course in context of different music, HARMONIC RHYTHM is the key difference. (Jazz students also touch on this with tritone subs for any dominant chords).
Example: Mozart: F7-E7-Am.... Flamenco: C7-F7-E(b9).... so flamenco "cuts the head" of the phrase that could have resolved to Am....and it does it rhythmically so that we come to rest on E and need no further resolutions. It is hard for western ears to grasp, but once you get inside the rhythm, the resolutions are quite easy to accept.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Hope that helps. If not, just play.
I'll stick with just playing for now because that post flew over my head. I'll get back to it in the future and maybe understand it a bit more, but for the time being, I'll stick with "it has E major just because it has it" as the explanation.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Cool but, Cm -Eb are super diatonic.
I meant Ebm. Its a whole cycle of minor chords which are separate by minor thirds. The only exception being the first chord change (Fm to Am) and the last one, which varies (one is Am Bm back to the original Fm riff)... then goes to E and lands on the Aminor chorus. Fun stuff.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
But frankly I still don't get the general scheme of things (i.e. why solea has E instead of Em, and what "phrygian key" refers to exactly).
......So now, what WOULD the song need to be called "Key of E minor"??? Well, it could have a number of different chords, or even other scales, but what it REALLY needs most simply is a dominant chord. B7. That would totally change the entire name game of describing the music.
So What differentiates a "Mode" from a "key" is the deliberate and necessary usage of DOMINANT resolving to TONIC chord function. Modal vamps, no matter how many chords you use, do NOT have that function UNLESS you have a 5---->1 harmonic resolution, in which case it's no longer called "a vamp", it's a "progression". It's that simple.......
I'm afraid i gone tease Ricardo a bid by claiming most if not all teachers/professors of music theory/harmony (mistakingly) will regard soleares to be written in Am and will find it very hard to accept it as being E-phrygian. Melodic characteristics, the added harmonics and especially the "odd" E major chord seems to be possible factors in that frictional duality.
Point is that we foro members only hear the E chord as the beginning/end of the cycle because we have learned to hear it like that. But the over majority of people are not tuned to hear it like that and feel it like a melody in Am. For them the E-chord feels like the dominant (V) of Am (I). As a result they don't feel the joy of "coming home" when F>E is played because they expect an Am to fallow it. This is the way most classical trained/non flamenco teachers in music theory will feel it. And you can't even blame them because to their ears your acquired V>I harmonic resolution is clearly audible/possible (E>Am). On top the characteristic scale "Am>G>F>E>Am>G>F(am)/E>Am" was extremely popular from as far as the renaissance and that one is indeed scaled in Am (despite sometimes endless improvisations on the Am>G>F>E part). An example is green-sleeves (so that green trousers came pretty close :-).
Obviously flamenco trained ears will never expect soleares to end with Am (although my father believes Sabicas actually did play it like that one)...... still we don't mind ending Granainas (B-phrygian) with an E chord which is more or less the same. So it's all in the ears of the beholder. On top how do we chance key in Bulerias if we want to modulate from E phrygian to Am...... we play E>AM and call it V>I. And if after playing a couple of Am falsetas we want to chance key to C major we play G>C and call that V>I. And after playing a couple of c major falsetas we can go back to E-phrygian by playing F>E calling it II>I.
E7>Am.....D7/f >G....G7>C.......F>E, the average Soleares copla seems to be one continuing modulation if you look at it with untrained ears (almost a perfect circle of quints), no wonder they expect an Am to close the circle The only way you can "convince" those "Am tuned ears" it should actually be called E phrygian and not Am is stating that for flamenco ears E is the beginning/end of the circle so they should not expect a closing Am chord but feel it like:
EFGABCDE
In that case the scale begins with a half step (meaning two neighboring notes like e>f, a>bB etc), which morally makes it a Phrygian mode. In a phrygian mode the characteristic cadens is II>I being the tail of the complete cadens IV>III>II>I (F>E or the full set Am>G>F>E).
In renaissance church music (almost) every note of the musical alphabet could be the beginning of a key so you had
They differ in were the smaller intervals are posted. The smaller intervals are the ones were in a chromatic scale no mole or sharp is needed to walk from one root note to the other crossing 1 fret at the time.
a/x/b/c/x/d/x/e/f/x/g/x/a-
the x represents the frets covered by sharps and moles... they can be played by raising the previous root note (sharp/#) or by lowering the upper root note (mole/b)
As you can see there is no blank fret between b/c and e/f, which represents the so called smaller intervals. Since the church modi differ in on which note they start they consequently also differ in were the smaller intervals were posted. There location influence both the character of the key and the character/location of the resulting chords. Most of them are forgotten by time but the ones starting on A (Am), C (C) and E (E-phrygian) are still very much alive in flamenco and western music. The phrygian key was the only key STARTING with a small interval e-f (there was no key starting on b because it's matching first chord b-d-f would host 2 small intervals which is not acceptable at that location). So the characteristic of the phrygian mode is that it starts with a small interval (like e-f). The name Phrygian was given to this key in the renaissance when they decided to link the various church modi to the parallel ancient Greek names. Funny enough they made a mistake and accidentally called the Dorian mode Phrygian. Some people in Spain still call it the Dorian key in stead of the phrygian key (i believe Manolo Sanlucar is one of them). Dorian would indeed be a better (and the originally intended) name, especially since the old greek dorian mode was felt running from top to bottom (like flamenco) wile the renaissance phrygian mode was felt from bottom to top.
isn't that fun :-)
Above (and future) post on this subject is a bit tricky for me because it is not really my field of expertise and i have only smelled on the subject during my education. All they told me (or that i seem to remember) is that a long time ago there were 6 church modi, all starting on a different part of the musical alphabet and that the one we call Phrygian has a characteristic small step at the very beginning of the scale and as a result does not have the usual V>I resolution (B7>E) but the characteristic II>I resolution (F>E). Unlike the Am scale that was treated by means of a melodic and a harmonic scale and even separated up-and downwards direction explaining the occurrence alterations like #g they did not explain similar events in E phrygian. What else can you expect from a classical based institute that wasn't even able to give it it's proper name and will not recognize modern variations by ear :-) But seriously, i'm sure they can offer lot's of interesting data if only you know the right source/person to approach...
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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
The only way you can "convince" the "Am tuned ears" it should actually be called E phrygian and not Am is stating that for flamenco ears E is the beginning/end of the circle so they should not expect a closing Am chord but feel it like:
You are not "teasing" me, I make the same claim at the end of my long post. Western ears don't accept E as tonic ... until you get inside the RHYTHM, then the resolution is easy to accept. It is like a secondary dominant resolution, but it is no longer secondary due to phrasing and timing. Its not about how a scale or chord STARTS the flamenco form. It's about how it RESOLVES. The way I would convince a western eared smart guy, was to teach him or her how to REMATAR....which is a rhythmic concept. Doing remates in any palo using Major, Minor, and Phrygian examples. It would only take as "long" for the ear to accept the resolution as it would how long it takes to feel the rhythmic phrasing properly. It would also clear up, at the same time, the mystery why all the flamencos and aficionados in the room suddenly STOP clapping for no reason. Perfect example where "theory" classes that emphasize notes and harmony skimp on the direct rhythmic and rudiment relationships that give meaning to say the circle of 5ths.
And regarding Doric vs Phrygian TERMINOLOGY, again it is totally useless and pointless issue as this is the MUSIC DISCIPLINE thing again. Why do we now need to learn flamenco via the ancient GREEK music system? Makes no sense. We use 'phrygian" as the correct term as we are attempting to explain flamenco in jazz/classical music terms. What label you put is arbitrary, it is about context, no point to mix it up in more complicated ways. Again, the flamencos simply call it "por arriba, por medio, por levante, por granaina" etc, works fabulously well and efficiently once the terminology is learned.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
An odd thing about western ears. 'All the Things You Are' is often laboriously analysed in terms of shifting key centres. But it is quite simple if you look it as an andalucian cadence broken down in to pairs giving you movement round the cycle of fourths and with a surprise Major key resolution instead of phrygian.
I have a chat with one of the accompanists from the local conservatoire and he just couldn't hear the difference between this and what happens in autumn 'Autumn Leaves'.
A lot of things start to function very differently when you shift the chords one place to the left or right in the harmonic scheme.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
most if not all teachers/professors of music theory/harmony will regard soleares to be written in Am
I would agree with what you write here.... but add that they are wrong! Many times playing Solea, people will say it sounds minor to them.... but then I play for a while with all the phrases using only E/F, or E/F/C and ask them if they can hear minor, obviously they can't, and then they are confused!
another point to make is that many flamencos will say that solea is "in" E major, because that is the home chord, the home tone etc.
RE: chord theory question soleares (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
MODES are scales. .....modal VAMP ......HARMONIC RHYTHM .....Augmented 6th chord harmony analysis .....Hope that helps. If not, just play.
thanks for taking time to make that post, I don't know much about jazz or classical theory, only what I have picked up in relation to flamenco, so modal vamps and Augmented 6th chord harmony analysis are fascinating bypaths I now know a tiny bit more about!
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