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Andre2807

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 7 2013
From: Cape Town, South Africa

Where do I start? 
The question is simple:

Where do I start?

Things to know:

1. I have a steel string acoustic (not ideal for flamenco, but it's all I have at the moment)
2. I can play the basics of guitar: A few chords, a few strum patterns (with a pick) and a few arpeggios. I can read tabs and can play the Em section of Spanish Romance (Romanza) but not very fluently yet.
3. I'm from South Africa. Finding a good flamenco teacher will be hard and expensive.

Can you guys recommend a few things? ie Books, music, videos, learning material and other online resources
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2013 7:11:13
 
xirdneH_imiJ

Posts: 1890
Joined: Dec. 2 2006
From: Budapest, now in Southampton

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
Welcome to Flamenco!

1. You are going to need a nylon strung guitar, you can't play flamenco on a steel strung, it won't sound right, and it'll destroy your nails.
2. Having some basic skills is surely helpful.
3. You may not be able to find a teacher in your area, but many of us learned by ourselves, using the helpful info on this and other sites. In the YouTube era it's much easier.

4. The books of Gerhard Graf-Martinez and Juan Martin are a good start, also I'd recommend searching this site and browsing through the old topics. You will find answers to most of your questions definitely.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2013 8:26:01
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
Welcome to the foro and greetings from holland. A steel string is better as nothing although far from ideal (to much tension, probably difficult to play left hand bindings and right hand taps or golpes). You have to start learning the techniques, using simple exercises and simple music. My generation (60ties) generally started with Juan Martin. Paco peña published a nice book as well (the cd was recently mentioned and offed in mp3 on the foro)

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=242979&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#242979

if you google toques flamenco PP you can find those tracks on youtube as well but it demands already quit a lot of experience to be able to play those pieces. You can find some beginners material on the foro and on the www.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2013 9:30:32
 
Andre2807

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 7 2013
From: Cape Town, South Africa

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
For now I'm just practicing moving form one chord to another. For example in Farruca the chords are (E, Am, E, Am, Dm, Am, E, Am) or Solea (Am, G, F, E).

I'm very used to the I-IV-V-I chord progression, as well as I-VI-V-IV. ie (C, F, G, C and C, Am, F, G) or (G, C, D, G and (G, Em, C, D)

I'll probably have to listen to some flamenco music, to properly learn the timing and rhythm too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2013 7:04:17
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
As the others have suggested, it's going to be tough to learn flamenco on a steel string (and really bad on your nails). You work with what you've got. But, that said, if no flamenco guitars are available, I'd look for a cheap classical guitar and have a golpeador put on.

In the meantime, one thing you can do -- and one which is really important for beginning flamenco students -- is to familiarize yourself with the rhythmic structures of the different "palos" (e.g. tangos, solea, and bulerias for starters perhaps). Here's a useful site for this, among others: http://www.ravennaflamenco.com/compas/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2013 7:30:20
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
quote:

I'll probably have to listen to some flamenco music, to properly learn the timing and rhythm too.




Well... if you feel like listening to it, thats ok.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 8 2013 10:42:12
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andre2807
I'll probably have to listen to some flamenco music, to properly learn the timing and rhythm too.


Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 4:13:57
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andre2807
I'll probably have to listen to some flamenco music, to properly learn the timing and rhythm too.


While not at all a prerequisite for learning theory based things like compas (which technically you can learn from books alone - at least the basic understanding/premise) listening to good Flamenco is of course a great benefit and part of the journey.


I can't understand why anyone would be trying to learn to play flamenco guitar without having listened to it first... why else would you want to learn to play it?

listening is absolutely a prerequisite for learning compás (or any other aspect), you can't listen to too much.

and compás being theory based?

_____________________________
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 14:11:35
 
Andre2807

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Oct. 7 2013
From: Cape Town, South Africa

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Okay great! I now have a classical guitar. Here in SA, you'll have to import a flamenco guitar if you really want one. Only bad thing is, the strings are so high above the sound hole. Should I ask the local guitar shop to lower the strings?

quote:

I can't understand why anyone would be trying to learn to play flamenco guitar without having listened to it first...


I actually listened to 2 guys playing flamenco in a mall in Cape Town. One was playing rhythm other guy was playing solo. THIS is where I got the inspiration from to start learning flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 14:28:39
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
quote:

I actually listened to 2 guys playing flamenco in a mall in Cape Town. One was playing rhythm other guy was playing solo.


This is not super common in flamenco. Are you trying to learn to sound like Moraito or Ottmar Liebert? If you YouTube them you'll hear the difference. Moraito = flamenco, Ottmar = Spanishy guitar
If you wanna sound like Ottmar you're in luck, it's waaaaaay easier to get to that point.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 15:01:39
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to mark indigo) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 16:58:08
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
I'd have to disagree with this, if you can write it that doesn't mean it's theory
it simply means that you have noted what was done, or is to be done. There
doesn't need to be any theory behind it.

quote:

If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 17:11:36
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to n85ae) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:14:18
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 877
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
I was only trying to make the point that the mere act of writing it doesn't
exactly mean it's theory, it's just notation for how something is played.

Whereas theory, at least per the web definition is:

"Music theory is the study of the structure of constructed music. Music theorists look for patterns and structures in composers' works across or within genres, styles, or historical periods. ..."

Writing something only means it has been recorded to paper.

At least that is my view.

Regards,
Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:21:04
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Andre2807) 
quote:

"Music theory is the study of the structure of constructed music. Music theorists look for patterns and structures in composers' works across or within genres, styles, or historical periods. ..."


If that's the definition of music theory then Flamenco lies outside of it since it is not constructed, it's improvised. (Not talking solo guitar stuff, I mean flamenco)

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:27:06
 
Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.


No it isn't.

But thats one of the biggest misconceptions in music, thats for sure.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:29:26
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to Sr. Martins) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:38:31
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes



1)Compas are time signature/rhythm. That is as theory based as key signatures, harmonies, and scales.

2)If you can put it on sheet music, that's theory.


3)Is traditional flamenco guitar something that was mostly learned by ear? Sure was. Doesn't change the fact that the foundation lies in things already defined in music theory.

4)Early masters simply opted for the ear route over the written one. Just because they didn't go about things the classical way doesn't mean that somehow the relationship to theory definitions no longer exists.



None of these hold water either as sentences in English or as statements about any music whatsoever.

I love music theory and find it powerful, vivid, fascinating and most of all very very useful. That is why I am always concerned when very poor information is given about it. It tends to vindicate the prejudices of those who disdain it.

There are valid powerful and useful systems of music theory which can be applied to flamenco. And maybe in a few years with a lot more experience you can effectively be an advocate for them. Until then try and avoid saying things which are simply rubbish.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:40:39
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

How do you figure?



Thats your job at this point.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:41:43
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to n85ae) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:51:58
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:55:55
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

The answer is that you can learn compas without actually having to travel to Sevilla, by simply picking up some sheet music or a book explaining those compas. And that "explanation" will most certainly be written out using notation and concepts from music theory.


You could learn a language from a book but if you didn't listen to anyone speak it then you would be unlikely to have an authentic accent. And if you tried to teach that language from a book and hadn't listened then you would be ....... what ?

Incidentally a big big problem that I have with flamenco scores is that as often as not the wrong time signatures are used. Haven't you noticed ? ??????????

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 18:56:39
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

so that you can actually display some competency here.



LOL
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:00:34
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:03:29
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes

Just because there are errors in one score doesn't mean that ALL scores are wrong, now does it? And it certainly doesn't mean that the entire practice of writing music notation out should be abandoned.


This device is commonly known as a false oppostition. It in no way reflects my beliefs but tells me what you assume they are.


D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:06:56
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:07:01
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
You got me. You are a real expert, I see that now.

Its cruel of you to toy with me like this.

D.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:09:46
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:10:22
 
cookieshoes

 

Posts: 33
Joined: Nov. 11 2007
 

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to guitarbuddha) 
Listen to music and get a teacher if you can.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:11:44
 
Mark2

Posts: 1871
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Where do I start? (in reply to cookieshoes) 
I agree with what you've written below, in theory.....
A person may be able to understand what a particular compas is only through understanding what a properly written score has illustrated.

But in reality, I think it would be quite impossible for a person to display the ability to perform compas in an acceptable manner, no matter with guitar playing, dancing, singing, or palmas without more than simply reading a score. In fact, much much more.



quote:

ORIGINAL: cookieshoes


Ultimately the original question was whether or not someone can learn compas without listening to a player, or having that player show you. The answer is that you can learn compas without actually having to travel to Sevilla, by simply picking up some sheet music or a book explaining those compas. And that "explanation" will most certainly be written out using notation and concepts from music theory.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 16 2013 19:21:59
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