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Academic Articles About Flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Brendan)
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quote:
Some of it dates back to the days when Flamenco was the affordable exotic; some of the more recent stuff understands that exoticing the Other is a trope of hegemony and that flamenco is a performative dialectic of conformity and resistance in a site of praxis... or something.
Your statement quoted above reads like a send-up of post-modernism, much as the "Sokal hoax" was in 1996. Alan Sokal, a physics professor at New York University, revealed the shallow, jargon-filled nonsense so beloved of "post-modern," literary critics and "cultural studies" types published in journals such as "Social Text." Sokal entitled his article "Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity." In the article Sokal reviewed various current topics in physics and mathematics, and, tongue in cheek, drew various cultural, philosophical, and political morals that he felt would appeal to fashionable academic commentators who question the claims of science to objectivity.
One of Sokal's "footnotes" reads: "Just as liberal feminists are frequently content with a minimal agenda of legal and social equality for women and 'pro-choice', so liberal (and even some socialist) mathematicians are often content to work within the hegemonic Zermelo–Fraenkel framework (which, reflecting its nineteenth-century liberal origins, already incorporates the axiom of equality) supplemented only by the axiom of choice."
After reading the article and Sokal's admission that it was all a hoax, some wag, referring to the post-modern, Lit-Crit deconstructionists running rampant in U.S. university English and Cultural Studies Departments, said: "I invite anyone questioning the objective facts established by science to step out of my second-story office window, and on his way down explain once again why gravity is simply a Western social construct."
The editors of "Social Text" deserved all the opprobrium and ridicule heaped upon them. What irritated them more than Sokal's breaking the rules of academic engagement was that they fell for it, revealing their own lack of academic rigor and their shallow pursuit of the latest academic "trend."
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 28 2016 11:10:35
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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@BarkellWH
Ah good ol' quantum woo. Thank God we have Deepak Chopra to decipher all that woo for us!
@kitarist
You do understand that an analogy is just that, an analogy, right? If I had wanted to say "it is the exact same thing as..." then I would have said "it is the exact same thing as...". The analogy is only partial, a tool to help explain a point of view.
Anyways, the point is that claiming a certain ancestry doesn't go far (or shouldn't go far) in academics. In any case, it shouldn't be something that you brand as a credential. When someone does, a lot of red lights start flashing for me. Her thesis may be good, I haven't read through it all yet, and she may have some good insights. But I seriously doubt she can explain something that the so-called non-Roma researchers couldn't (those who are doing there jobs seriously that is). I also belong to a specific social group with own history/culture/art etc. I don't feel anymore qualified to conduct a scientific study on this group than a skilled and dedicated outsider though. I wouldn't expect this person to have had the same experiences I've had but, then again, that's not really what we expect from our researchers is it? Experiencing something is one thing, being able to explain it is another. Try this flawed analogy: Dian Fossey wasn't a gorilla, but when it comes to conducting a scientific study on gorillas, I trust her credentials more than those of a gorilla.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 28 2016 18:06:36
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Piwin
Posts: 3559
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to kitarist)
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Wow. You type fast! 
Thanks for reposting your previous comments but those are the ones I attempted to address in my previous response. I guess I didn't get through.
Let me try another angle: I get that your concern with my analogy to mathematics is that it is a very different subject-matter than flamenco or, speaking broadly, culture. I suppose this is where you saw an instance of faulty logic (apples and oranges, comparing what can't be compared?)? I'm not sure the difference is as big as you seem to think it is though. After all, both are learned and acquired over time through exposure and practice. I hope at the very least that it is clear that I'm not saying that you can study flamenco culture in a dark library room on the other side of the planet and get the best insight on what is going on. Obviously this is the kind of study that would require some field work. That being said, I don't think the fact that she was born Roma is such a great credential that it she should feel the need to mention it in her thesis. As I tried to say before, the advantage she has over "outsiders" is purely experiential. If that is the sole basis of her study, than it should be a case study, nothing more. It's anecdotal. If, however, she's trying to draw wider conclusions from her own personal experience, she'd have to jump through quite a few hoops and put a lot of trust in inductive reasoning and extrapolation. That's just not the way science works. When it comes to those wider conclusions, she's no better equipped than anybody else who has the same academic training as her.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Jun. 28 2016 19:13:32
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
I'm not sure you get what I mean by "experiential", or, if so, we fundamentally disagree on what the entire scientific process is about. As far as I can see, you don't need any experiential knowledge to study a culture... The purpose of field work is not to get a first-person experience that you can then discuss. It is to get close to the subject-matter you are studying, since it is not as simple as going to the local library as you could most likely do for most of your subject-matter in mathematics.
It is not the purpose, but in the case of cultural studies it is an added bonus. I mean, you say "it is to get close to the subject-matter you are studying" - well, she can get closer than most. It does not guarantee a superior result, but at least there is some chance she would identify, describe and analyze important characteristics that were missed by others.
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Date Jun. 28 2016 19:50:09
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kitarist
Posts: 1715
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
As for the word "innate", it has a specific meaning. And in fact, you're right, I am extrapolating. I'm extrapolating from years of living side by side with gipsy communities who love to distinguish between the insider and the outsider in terms of "innateness". You'll never be as a good because you're not from their bloodline.
BTW, just on this, I've thought about this in other contexts too (tango), I think there is more to it than this. The holders of the original art which was produced by that specific culture are sort of pushed constantly by the art's "consumers" to define it, chunk-size it, distinguish it clearly from other forms, meet high expectations for it to be (and stay) unique and "exotic" and different - so it is saleable, commodifiable; so that it keeps its 'allure' and defined boundaries. And this leads to incredible pressure to claim that only the originators can produce it in its true form - both because of these pressures and for business reasons. Whether the gypsy communities truly believe this is almost beside the point.
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Date Jun. 28 2016 20:00:00
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Kiko_Roca
Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
I expect you won't enjoy this thesis by Rosamaria E. Cisneros-Kostic. I haven't got through the whole of it yet, but here is an excerpt of the introduction:
"This is an important investigation because many
scholars, who have written about flamenco, write from an outsider’s perspective.
However, as an American Roma as well as a dancer and a woman who has lived in Spain
for many years, my perspective offers insight into an often misunderstood and
misrepresented world. I write as a scholar as well as a mover, who innately comprehends
the flamenco art form as well as the Roma tradition".
Perhaps this is common currency in today's academia but it strikes me as being completely off-topic and unscientific. It could be an interesting point for a biography perhaps, not for an academic study. Next we'll read a thesis on mathematics: "this is an important contribution to the field of mathematics because both my parents and also my grandparents were mathematicians, which is not the case of most researchers"...
Someone may also want to explain to her the mean of "innate"...
It is a thesis for a MA in Theater and Dance more or less focusing on some aspects of flamenco history as far as I can tell - not sure what you were expecting. She's published a few things on Roma history and women in what appears to be peer reviewed journals, so I assume her ability to parse information from the dozen pages of references in her thesis is competent. I've not read much of it though so I can't personally attest to that.
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Date Jun. 28 2016 21:30:13
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
I was just ranting on one particular aspect that peeved me. I have no reason to doubt that she is otherwise competent in what she does
She may be competent in what she does, but not necessarily for the reasons listed in the excerpt from her introduction repeated below.
"This is an important investigation because many scholars, who have written about flamenco, write from an outsider’s perspective.
However, as an American Roma as well as a dancer and a woman who has lived in Spain for many years, my perspective offers insight into an often misunderstood and misrepresented world. I write as a scholar as well as a mover, who innately comprehends the flamenco art form as well as the Roma tradition."
She first creates a straw man in "many scholars, who have written about flamenco, write from an outsider's perspective," and compares them to her own "important investigation," and lists her qualifications as being "an American Roma as well as a dancer and a woman who has lived in Spain." She further embellishes her credentials by noting that she writes "as a scholar as well as a mover."
Well now, let's review the bidding. To whom is she referring when she speaks of many scholars who have written about flamenco from an outsider's perspective? Most scholars who have written seriously about flamenco have spoken Spanish, have lived in Spain, and have made a serious study of flamenco. Moreover, how does being an "American Roma" qualify her as an authority on the gitanos of Andalucia? I suspect an "American Roma" has few linkages to said gitanos, who have been influenced in very different ways than the American Roma. I happen to have Welsh, English, and French heritage, yet my Welsh heritage, in and of itself, hardly qualifies me to expound on the Welsh character. Anymore than an American Black "innately", as she puts it, comprehends the art forms of Togo or the Gambia.
Judging from her introductory excerpt, I don't see that she is any more qualified to be considered an "insider" than those she dismisses as "outsiders." From one point of view, anyone who is not an Andalucian gitano can be considered an outsider. She may be, as she rather pompously suggests, a "scholar as well as a mover," but she appears to be every bit as much an outsider as those she so cavalierly dismisses. Perhaps she will have something to say in her thesis, but it always raises a red flag when someone begins by attempting to embellish her own credentials by dismissing those of others.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 29 2016 13:55:33
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Mark2
Posts: 1868
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco
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RE: Academic Articles About Flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
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I have business relationships with many American gypsies. While there may be some cultural similarity to Spanish gypsy flamencos, the gypsies I know have zero knowledge of, or interest in, flamenco. So unless she comes from a flamenco family, her knowledge, though it may be extensive, has nothing to do with her heritage. The fact that she touts the connection, while certainly knowing the level of interest in flamenco among American gypsies, is a red flag. But that hardly makes her unique, in that many foreign performers play up their own connection to the source in the form of claiming Spanish blood, adopting Spanish names, etc.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
quote:
I was just ranting on one particular aspect that peeved me. I have no reason to doubt that she is otherwise competent in what she does
She may be competent in what she does, but not necessarily for the reasons listed in the excerpt from her introduction repeated below.
"This is an important investigation because many scholars, who have written about flamenco, write from an outsider’s perspective.
However, as an American Roma as well as a dancer and a woman who has lived in Spain for many years, my perspective offers insight into an often misunderstood and misrepresented world. I write as a scholar as well as a mover, who innately comprehends the flamenco art form as well as the Roma tradition."
She first creates a straw man in "many scholars, who have written about flamenco, write from an outsider's perspective," and compares them to her own "important investigation," and lists her qualifications as being "an American Roma as well as a dancer and a woman who has lived in Spain." She further embellishes her credentials by noting that she writes "as a scholar as well as a mover."
Well now, let's review the bidding. To whom is she referring when she speaks of many scholars who have written about flamenco from an outsider's perspective? Most scholars who have written seriously about flamenco have spoken Spanish, have lived in Spain, and have made a serious study of flamenco. Moreover, how does being an "American Roma" qualify her as an authority on the gitanos of Andalucia? I suspect an "American Roma" has few linkages to said gitanos, who have been influenced in very different ways than the American Roma. I happen to have Welsh, English, and French heritage, yet my Welsh heritage, in and of itself, hardly qualifies me to expound on the Welsh character. Anymore than an American Black "innately", as she puts it, comprehends the art forms of Togo or the Gambia.
Judging from her introductory excerpt, I don't see that she is any more qualified to be considered an "insider" than those she dismisses as "outsiders." From one point of view, anyone who is not an Andalucian gitano can be considered an outsider. She may be, as she rather pompously suggests, a "scholar as well as a mover," but she appears to be every bit as much an outsider as those she so cavalierly dismisses. Perhaps she will have something to say in her thesis, but it always raises a red flag when someone begins by attempting to embellish her own credentials by dismissing those of others.
Bill
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Date Jun. 29 2016 16:02:22
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