RE: Kema

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RE: Kema

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athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Kema (in reply to pink)

True Lenador.
Success doesn't mean it's good. Real art polarised and can be awkward for some peoples ears.
And Chester, I think we all have the freedom to tell the world that we don't like something. And I just don't like Kema.
But I like Grishas music a lot.
Where is the hate? I can't find it in neither of these posts.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 20:34:40

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Kema (in reply to chester)

Chester,
while I agree sometimes there's some "group identity" issues going on in these kind of comparisons, it's incorrect to say Kema is more successful than anyone in this thread. Grisha is a up-and-coming concert artist who has mastered a repertoire of flamenco and classical much more difficult than anything Kema will ever play in a Chico song. I don't know if you saw the vids of Grisha playing virtuoso solos in historic concert halls. That is success for a classical guitarist. Ricardo is working every day of the week as a flamenco. Respectfully, while Kema has had some big gigs, it's a stretch to say he's more successful than either. I don't know if you noticed his gig where he's sitting a table in front of the cafeteria kitchen. You don't see Paco or Santana having to do that too often. Kema was not the guitarist on Chico's best or most popular albums.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 20:45:19

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

From the stand point of facility this guy seems to be in a class of his own.
Really amazing. But is it musical? Not to me and I can't see how the ultra fast picado fits into flamenco playing except as showboating for soloists.

Here is Su Ming playing what must be at the outermost end of classical proficiency. The right hand is overshadowed by the left hand gymnastics.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 21:26:11

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Kema (in reply to aeolus)

Kinda funny you chose Paganini as an example since he, more than possibly any other of the household name composers, has been accused of empty virtuosity by every generation of critics and underpowered soloists.

I think that in order for Kema to achieve his facility he must have a fine and disciplined musical mind. Far more disciplined than me so Kudos to him.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 22:06:49

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

Listening to the second video I just can't see how anyone could find anything musical in it. It certainly doesn't sound attractive and however much it conforms to forms are compas its really good sound that one wants. I would think. Liebert's nuevo flamenco may be anathema to the true flamenco but it sold more albums than any other guitar albums because it sounds good. I am listening to the video posted by Rui Martins and it sounds terrible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 22:37:36

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Kema (in reply to aeolus)

'What I am beginning to realize is that virtuosity is not something distanced from or subservient to art, but a legitimate expression of the musical impulse in and of itself.'

Nice quote from here.

http://theamericanscholar.org/on-virtuosity/#.UfmSuG068to

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 22:46:40

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

Thanks for the link. I think age has a lot to do with it. When one is young speed is the thing that quickens the pulse. But with age it's the harmony that counts and the guitar can't be played fast and retain the harmony I think. And I must say I hear no harmony in Rui Martins post. I am not trying to be argumentative but to understand perception.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 23:11:17

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

quote:

Liebert's nuevo flamenco may be anathema to the true flamenco but it sold more albums than any other guitar albums because it sounds good.

That's not why, it's because you don't have to think when you listen to it. You can just bob your head and smile, that's what sells big numbers. The general public doesn't want complicated music no matter how well the harmonies are constructed. They want McDonalds, reality television, half naked women and music that makes you bob your head unconsciously, that's what sells.........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 31 2013 23:46:36

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Kema (in reply to chester)

I am usually all for folks chiming in at random but all this business of kema hating, musicality, success, circle jerking competition paganini gymnastics etc etc, is missing the simple point of the "argument" some of us have with Grisha. The point we are addressing is simply what it takes to execute some scale fragments at tempo X.... not much more to the "who is better than who" issue. It's funny how many times people have to point out "well Grisha asked .....".

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 14:54:54

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Kema (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

And I must say I hear no harmony in Rui Martins post.

I agree. They're usually based around minor seconds.

While its not a full chord, it makes a nice & nasty double stop.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 15:16:56

rletson

Posts: 8
Joined: May 25 2013

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

The original question--"What do you think of his playing?"--did not explicitly limit itself to technique or musicality or taste or degree-of-traditionalism or desirability-as-a-role-model, so one might reasonably expect a range of responses to the entire presentation. That was certainly my take on the question.

Why is it so hard to accept that a performer might exhibit considerable technical skill but not make music that everyone enjoys? Technique is amenable to some degree of objective evaluation: notes are produced at X speed with Y cleanness and Z precision; the compas is or isn't competently executed; and so on. But technical proficiency is an independent variable in matters of aesthetic response. There are plenty of ferociously competent guitarists in, say, the metal genres, but I don't like metal and no amount of respect for technique is going to make me enjoy that music. And I find that technique can actually get in the way of musicality (a subjective judgment--see next paragraph) even in genres that I do enjoy, like gypsy jazz, which is often seems to be played fast for its own sake; or some kinds of Hedges-inspired guitar-tapping/slapping that emphasize gymnastics and stunt playing.

Now, these are my aesthetic responses, which means that there is no basis for them other than my particular, subjective set of tastes--plenty of people enjoy, say, speed metal precisely for its speed, or enjoy stunt guitar work the way they might enjoy an acrobatic act, for the sheer physical mastery on display. They're not "wrong" any more than I'm "right," and people who enjoy Kema's music enjoy Kema's music, period. As it happens, I don't, at least the samples I encountered. (In fact, I quite dislike that kind of music, as my snarky description of it shows, and I'll cop to being capable of snark when asked an opinion of something I dys-enjoy. That's probably a character flaw.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 16:41:50

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 1 2013 17:05:41

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 17:05:35

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

If Kema was a user here at the foro, everyone would be like "mad skills bro, awesome!".

Given the way he was presented (as a professional, playing live with videos all over youtube) we get this crap that is already five pages long. I already find myself not coming over as often.

What's wrong with you people?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 17:16:59

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Kema (in reply to Sr. Martins)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rui Martins

If Kema was a user here at the foro, everyone would be like "mad skills bro, awesome!".

Given the way he was presented (as a professional, playing live with videos all over youtube) we get this crap that is already five pages long. I already find myself not coming over as often.

What's wrong with you people?

My thoughts exactly.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 17:22:47

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

Perhaps it is time to close the thread! Everything has been said already and my question has been answered with a good variety of opinions. I thank you all for that! And sorry that some got annoyed at the end. Please lock.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 17:35:41

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Kema (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grisha

Perhaps it is time to close the thread! Everything has been said already and my question has been answered with a good variety of opinions. I thank you all for that! And sorry that some got annoyed at the end. Please lock.

It's not necessary to lock threads because they are going in a direction the OP didn't intend.

Personally, I haven't seen a single objectionable post in this thread. We have each seen the clip with our own perspectives and commented accordingly. Grisha, if you are uncomfortable because people are discussing you instead of Kema, I'm sure if you made that clear, people would respect your wishes. But locking threads isn't the answer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 17:45:49

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

No, I welcome any criticism towards myself. And I did not feel like I was being discussed. The reason I suggested for the thread to be locked is that I sensed the argument heating up while no new points of view were presented. It was Rui Martins' post above that sealed that impression. I may be wrong though. It is up to admins now.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 18:05:36

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Kema (in reply to jg7238)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jg7238

quote:

By the way, I find the scale that Antonio Rey played in the first video to be fun to practice. It feels to be the perfect length and gives you quite a few challenges.

I agree.. Here is my turtle speed version compared to yours.

you guys are all monsters.
*shocked*

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 22:02:29

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Kema (in reply to Grisha)

Quotes 1)
Perhaps it is time to close the thread! Everything has been said already and my question has been answered with a good variety of opinions. I thank you all for that! And sorry that some got annoyed at the end. Please lock.

Quote 2)
No, I welcome any criticism towards myself. And I did not feel like I was being discussed. The reason I suggested for the thread to be locked is that I sensed the argument heating up while no new points of view were presented. It was Rui Martins' post above that sealed that impression. I may be wrong though. It is up to admins now.

Well I'm not annoyed....just happy that the input from all views has been posted.
The bottom line is that without doubt we all got something from this one ...even Rui.

This post/thread hasn't even begun to explain what's wrong with me ( no dis Rui! Always enjoy your words) or anyone else because the bottom line as with all ,is that peoples opinions
are just opinions and that's that ...no exclusivity on being right or wrong.
Guess we all know the score....if you don't want to hear / read the answer then don't ask the question in the first place yes?

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 22:43:43

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Kema (in reply to pink)

Oh I'm right by the way!!!!!
Ha

Best

pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 22:46:02

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3079
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the topic itself, I guess I was even the first one to reply.

The problem seems to be the "assholistic behaviour" by some members. They are either talking crap or trying to push others into talking crap and thats how people get upset and threads get ruined.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 22:54:54

pink

Posts: 570
Joined: Jan. 8 2013

RE: Kema (in reply to Sr. Martins)

Rui,
I guess we are all capable of speaking crap depending on the angle we are approaching a topic from....there is a lot I've not agreed with in this thread and also plenty I have. My use of your quote was a response to Grishas and I exampled you ,maybe unfairly? as part of my response....I TOO HAVE LEARNED A LOT FROM THIS ONE and like I said we don't have exclusivity on being right or wrong.
If assholistic was aimed at me I don't think that's overly appropriate or accurate .....I consider myself a total f.u.c.k. pig and most people who know me well would agree or use some strong language....if the comment was aimed elsewhere you may still refer to me as such...that is fine.
Either way , best to you as always
pink

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 1 2013 23:19:37

athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Kema (in reply to athrane77)

Sorry Rui and others, I can't understand you. Neither I can find any "assholistic" posts in this thread, nor someone who have offended others. It's just chatting about other guitarrists, totally normal in my opinion. Things like that can't annoy me.
Ok other people other opinions. No problem with that. But its not the end of the foro like you and others have claimed.
To me, the real hijacking a thread is that everytime upcoming talk about bad members and "negative energy" in the foro. This is off-topic, non-constructive and very annoying. just my 2 cents.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2013 8:38:38