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I think technically his picado is executed in the same way like the perfect tremolo of the balalaika players.
balalaika tremolo is strumming and closer to tresillos in flamenco guitar. Regarding Kema - amazing skill, never heard of him before, thanks for the topic.
In the "Rumbero, Non-Tonino Division", my favorite guitarist is not Kema, who's rather robotic, but Mario Regis. Check out Mario playing his stuff from an earlier Chico album:
Here he is shredding on a ballad:
I first became aware of Mario when I saw the Gipsy Kings one time and Tonino wasn't there! There was this big Frech-looking guy. But he was absolutely ripping it up, playing all of Tonino's stuff but a lot cleaner and louder. Years later, I did some Youtube "research" and found these guys. Then I found out he was the same guy on those old Chico and the Gypsies albums (my rumba group played a lot of Chico songs back in the day since they were a little fresher than the Gipsy Kings).
Cerreduela and Rey are great guitarists and musicians, but their picado can't match Kema's. It is definitely fast enough, though.
Can't match his picado????
Not to mention all the rest involved with flamenco playing....sheeeesh....
Look, lets be honest. THe point here is which of these guys that all want to be Paco could actually convincingly replace him (like if it was audio we couldn't tell) on a gig with lets say mclaughlin. Sorry but based on what I have seen and heard, the only ones are the ones I mentioned. I have seen Banderas and Rey literally do it live and Cerreduela on video. The french guys, sorry they can't do it.
Okay, Ricardo. Maybe you know something about those names you mentioned that I don't. I have never seen Rey go very fast, although he is always incredibly musical. I would say speed is not his strength, it's control and attention to details. I remember I saw a video of Cerreduela playing Paco's Rumba. His scales were medium fast, but controlled. He did a lot of repetitive patterns similar to the ones used by Kema. Banderas was a killer guitarist in the late 80-s and early 90-s for sure, and Solo, Duo, Trio recording proves it. When I Saw him with Paco in concert (circa 98?) he was messing up and could not match even aging Paco's Zyryab speed. But when younger he perhaps could match Kema. Rosario was great in everything I heard him do, so he is most likely another one able to match Kema.
A gig with JM is a whole lot different than playing solos over GK's style progressions. But I'd probably give up a toe to be able to do picado like Kema. Well, not a big toe.......... I wonder if those French gypsies can play over changes like the French gypsy jazz dudes. Kema's technique playing over changes would be pretty scary.
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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
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ORIGINAL: Grisha
Kema is a monster. Enough said.
Cerreduela and Rey are great guitarists and musicians, but their picado can't match Kema's. It is definitely fast enough, though.
Can't match his picado????
Not to mention all the rest involved with flamenco playing....sheeeesh....
Look, lets be honest. THe point here is which of these guys that all want to be Paco could actually convincingly replace him (like if it was audio we couldn't tell) on a gig with lets say mclaughlin. Sorry but based on what I have seen and heard, the only ones are the ones I mentioned. I have seen Banderas and Rey literally do it live and Cerreduela on video. The french guys, sorry they can't do it.
I wonder if those French gypsies can play over changes like the French gypsy jazz dudes. Kema's technique playing over changes would be pretty scary.
No. But in gypsie rumba ,gypsie jazz manouche(django,bireli...) ,the french are the better and the faster. it's a fact. What's the problem americans guys?
In pure jazz the number one is french too.(sylvain luc)
and we have one of the best flamenco player.Juan carmona. All that things are cultural ,like the best flamenco players are the spanish. In france There are 5 yo child who dont be able to change 2chords but they can do the right hand pattern of rumba with good rythm.
In europe we played guitar before the birth of USA.
Oh, thats why bananas are red! It's a cultural/geographic thing. A spanish person that never played guitar would play picado much better than any american guitar player.
Nah, you guys with that little gospel, blues, soul, ragtime, jazz, country, folk, rock´n´roll and >gasp< what not ...
You should have seen the Korean guy lately with his gzamza style or so ( yeah, it was an invention for who knows no more than two notes in a fixed order ). THAT was something!
- Including a lame 50 mio bucks the midi composer can rest on for the rest of his sparkling creative life. You might have mixed up there in regard of relevance, priorities or any such.
I would leave nationality out of it. Genes, maybe. Exposure early in life, for sure. Right teachers. Ability to sit with the guitar for a long time practicing. Clear and high goals. And, of course, quick reflexes.
Kema had all of that.
I am not sure if Kema could play solos just as well over challenging chord progressions. But I think he would be capable of it if he set it as his goal. Paco learned, remember.
Speaking of chasing Paco's speed, ironically its Paco's extraordinary sense of phrasing, use of motif, and melodic instincts that are, to me, the most enthralling. The speed bursts give me a rush, but its the awesome, unforgettable melodies, and motiffs that have made me want to hear him again and again for my whole life. He's not just a gifted guitarist.
No offense but most of these rumbero guys, though they can shred, just don't have much of anything going on as far as memorable melodies, interesting motif's, etc. They have mostly pre-rehearsed speedy scale patterns, but they're not really saying much musically. i always feel like they're just piddling out notes hear and there, but its really just wasting time until they get to the fast runs.
I dont feel that way when i listen to Paco. I think Tonino has that gift as well. He has the tone, and the phrasing. He's saying memorable things. And he is plenty fast.
The reason I posted this vid is for those who haven't heard of Kema to check him out. He has freakish playing ability. I would also study his hand position, as he is an exponent of that "other" school, not a copy of Paco.
You nailed it. Paco has it all, incredible musicality in his improvisations and the chops. To me , he kills JM and Al in the trio solos. And Tonino too-great melodic improviser. Those things go beyond having the speed. Of course for those of us who don't have even the speed, Kema's chops are enviable.
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToddK
Speaking of chasing Paco's speed, ironically its Paco's extraordinary sense of phrasing, use of motif, and melodic instincts that are, to me, the most enthralling. The speed bursts give me a rush, but its the awesome, unforgettable melodies, and motiffs that have made me want to hear him again and again for my whole life. He's not just a gifted guitarist.
No offense but most of these rumbero guys, though they can shred, just don't have much of anything going on as far as memorable melodies, interesting motif's, etc. They have mostly pre-rehearsed speedy scale patterns, but they're not really saying much musically. i always feel like they're just piddling out notes hear and there, but its really just wasting time until they get to the fast runs.
I dont feel that way when i listen to Paco. I think Tonino has that gift as well. He has the tone, and the phrasing. He's saying memorable things. And he is plenty fast.
It´s not just speed, but how. Kemas technique is ergonomically efficient and costs little energy. I think Erik in his above post described well what there is to be observed.
What I would add is that straight fingers / the plain drive from the first joint makes for the shortest `pedaling´/ least way in terms of neuronal efforts.
Speaking of chasing Paco's speed, ironically its Paco's extraordinary sense of phrasing, use of motif, and melodic instincts that are, to me, the most enthralling. The speed bursts give me a rush, but its the awesome, unforgettable melodies, and motiffs that have made me want to hear him again and again for my whole life. He's not just a gifted guitarist.
hey, can you keep that paragraph on file and post it every time some noob posts some guff about how Paco is "just technique"?
these guys dont think about straight finger,neuronal effort etc...
For a good picado ,play natural,all guitarists are differents.
You are 100% right but the problem is that only a extremely limited amount of persons is blessed by a natural ability to play natural. The few ones that do do not think about the underlaying mechanisms, but they most certainly apply them the best possible way, automatically selecting the moves and positions that fit there specific biology most. For those who are not blessed with a natural talent to select "natural moves automatically" studying ones biomechanics is the second best way to to get the very best out of oneself. Biomechanics totally embraces your statement everybody is different because it is al about studying/understanding/optimizing/exploiting ones unique biological (in)possibilities.
these guys dont think about straight finger,neuronal effort etc...
For a good picado ,play natural,all guitarists are differents.
I could agree if you were talking about natural physical coordination of free wildlife. But specialized on functional coordination I can tell you where our civilisations "natural" body control is. Basically not existant. ( We have to teach people how to WALK, mind you! And I don´t mean exceptions, but your average Joe.)
Further, if differences with playing technique were all individually ergonomic: Why care about technical didactics at all? Just let everyone try in the way that occures with his current motorical habits and he may develop efficient technique. No?
Differences with technique will for most* mean that some have to invest more energy than others ( "athletic approach" as I call it ), yet if they do achieve very high level of bpm or other aspects.
You can follow such path, but independent from your advanced score you could always be having it more seamless than that.
* Exceptions being with physcial anomalies, or requirements due to unergonomical proportions of the instrument, etc. Conditions however, not to be mixed up with the assumption that everyone´s physiology took individual motorics to match.
Least of individual deviation and preferences of a learner that a good teacher will regard, will be due to physical differences.
Ruphus
PS: Having said that: I do think it ergonomically sub optimal that everyone is basically using the same standard size with guitars.
Just like with above case of actually more or less suiting technique, players should be positively suprised if there existed rigs to measure ones individual physical demand, like there is for instance with running shoes supply.
Same players who master the standard size would certainly not suffer when supplied with individually adapted guitar proportions ( scale, neck, nut and bridge that is ). - Even if initially it felt weird to them in the first hours or days.
Speaking of chasing Paco's speed, ironically its Paco's extraordinary sense of phrasing, use of motif, and melodic instincts that are, to me, the most enthralling. The speed bursts give me a rush, but its the awesome, unforgettable melodies, and motiffs that have made me want to hear him again and again for my whole life. He's not just a gifted guitarist.
hey, can you keep that paragraph on file and post it every time some noob posts some guff about how Paco is "just technique"?
As a matter of fact, in the late 80ties/early 90ties i had a discussion with my best friend (and flamenco classmate) Nick about what made Paco so special. According to my friend it was his impeccable technique rather then his musical abilities and according to me it was totally the other way around. Many players have reached equally good if not better technical control since, but his musical intellect is still unmatched. People that believe Paco is "just technique" only advertise that musical perfection is totally wasted on them because apparently they have only eyes for technique and not for musical nuance.
PS: Having said that: I do think it ergonomically sub optimal that everyone is basically using the same standard size with guitars.
Just like with above case of actually more or less suiting technique, players should be positively suprised if there existed rigs to measure ones individual physical demand, like there is for instance with running shoes supply.
Same players who master the standard size would certainly not suffer when supplied with individually adapted guitar proportions ( scale, neck, nut and bridge that is ). - Even if initially it felt weird to them in the first hours or days.
I'm one of those guys who was very attracted to Paco's technique, but not particularly his music. Besides basically every track on Almoraima, about half of Zyryab and a few other pieces here and there (I admit it, I like Entre Dos Aguas), it often leaves me cold. The low point here was Cositas Buenas, which just sounded like a bunch of doodling to me. And if there's some kind of musical quality being exhibited in his South American covers, it's way over my head.
I find much of Tomatito's, Gerardo's, and Vicente's stuff much more musical and expressive. I'm sure there must be great depths in Paco's musicality and composition that I'm just not getting. Maybe someday I'll be able to really enjoy it.
Besides basically every track on Almoraima, about half of Zyryab and a few other pieces here and there (I admit it, I like Entre Dos Aguas), it often leaves me cold. The low point here was Cositas Buenas, which just sounded like a bunch of doodling to me. And if there's some kind of musical quality being exhibited in his South American covers, it's way over my head.
I mainly love his flamenco albums of the 70ties and 80ties. The South American covers are just a moment in time (not one i particularly like) and the last record i enjoyed personally was Zyriab (with Luzia he (again) changed his approach of music, this time in a way i couldn't enjoy anymore, bad luck for me). Life on stage i lost interest even sooner because he noticeably lost his passion shortly after Camaron died. After i visited a couple of post Camaron concerts (were i only enjoyed the bass and flute solo) i decided not to torture myself anymore. So for me it's basically his development during the 70ties and 80ties that i treasure. Don't you know/like Ciroco? I love Vicente's debut album and a couple of his later songs, the same counts for Tomatito. I had (but lost) a great record of Gerardo. Riqueni was one of my favorites as well. Another great record is Tauromagia from Sanlucar and Zero hour from Astor Piazzolla (some South American music i do enjoy).... i seem to be a fan of the 80ties.
Yeah, Riqueni and Tauromagia were great! And I keep hearing about Siroco, maybe I just need to put it in the CD player a little and give it another chance. I do love Almoraima and Solo Quiero Caminar.
I saw Paco in May and was very disappointed. Really enjoyed the wonderful dancer and harmonica players most of all.
I'm gonna side with grisha and todd on this one, clearly kema's picado is better than rey or rosario that's just a fact : he's faster and his movements are very economical but music is not technic and here the music is not very interesting ...
About jamming with someone like mclaughin I don't see antonio or rosario do it for that matter, they don't have the knowledge I think they will have to learn like paco.
Just check out this little jam featuring with tommy emmanuel and antonio rey (video is not in sync and the audio sucks a bit) :
I absolutely love antonio rey tremolo, picado very clear when he plays solo. But the jam is not really great (but I think it was kinda not prepared so I can forgive them :) ) : picado runs are patterns like guys playing with a pick the difference to me is that a pick is better for soloing over a chord progression because you can do "patterns" that are more interesting : picado you mostly stuck with three notes per string (most of the time descending scales, and 90 % you play on e and b strings), flamenco guitarists rarely play arpeggios when improvising because you have to change string very often and picado is not very convenient to do that kind of runs...
But these days I find instruments such as trumpet, violin, saxophone or piano are very interesting (more than guitar but I don't play them that's maybe why) in this context, I love the live with paco and chick corea and everytime I 'm just amazed at the possibilities that the piano offer the improvisation of chick is just so good (in zyriab as well)
I remembered first time I listened to paco de lucia I did not find it very musical, Vicente opened the flamenco doors for me then I come back to paco (and tomatito gerardo etc) and only then I realized that his playing was very interesting, fresh, musical and apart from the others but it takes time (at least for me) I had to listen a lot to his music.
I absolutely love paco and john concerts from the eighties :
(1987 the bulerias in the middle you HAVE to see it) and
(corea's spain is so good on this one)) not because of the technic but because it seems to me that they are talking to each others and they can literally do everything at every moment while staying perfectly in rhythm :)
Last but not least if you 're into speed the nylon guitar is probably not the best choice I will go with violin or piano or something played with a pick :) Grisha I'm just a curious 20 notes per second is super fast can you provide a video ? because if I remember correctly even the fastest electric guitarist that I know (shawn lane who did things nearly impossible) is not even that fast
Yeah, Riqueni and Tauromagia were great! And I keep hearing about Siroco, maybe I just need to put it in the CD player a little and give it another chance. I do love Almoraima and Solo Quiero Caminar.
I saw Paco in May and was very disappointed. Really enjoyed the wonderful dancer and harmonica players most of all.
I didn't stop visiting his shows in the mid/late 90ties for nothing :-(
After his hispanoamerica period (partly triggered by growing demands of record companies surging for alternative artists to replace there striking "official musicians") Paco continued recording traditional flamenco with self written compositions. Fuente y Caudal (73) is a beautiful example of that period. Almoraima was his first record introducing modern flamenco. Solo Quiero Caminar (one of my favorites as well) was the first record introducing his sexted and also the first record introducing the Cajon. After the very inspiring in between record "Life one summer night" (a life recording of his sextet) Ciroco was released. It contains the most beautiful intro ever (Alegrias) and one of the most beautiful endings ever (Mineras).
As far as i can judge Riqueni was the very first ever to modernize the compas variations of Soleares as well and not only the falsetas (the same record also contained his fabulous Fandangos).
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