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RE: emotion in music in general and flamenco in particular
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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 RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Furthermore, we have no way to combine the effects of gravity on space-time with particle physics which deals with the components of matter at subatomic levels.
For me, duality simply IS TRUTH...it does not matter if we can't describe it in a singular way. Look at this way, if it were NOT truth, then it wouldn't exist. A quarter is 25 cents no matter if it is heads or tails. Newton is truth, and so is Einstein. Otherwise we would not be even using Newton anymore. Who says truth = complete knowledge of everything???
I don't know what you mean by the word "duality" here.
Wave/particle duality? That's just a phrase that was cooked up to describe the deeply counter-intuitive subatomic world . It has no role in quantum field theory.
Conflicting versions of truth being equally valid? I have a problem with that. The major problem with considering Newtonian physics as "truth" is that it is false. It is demonstrably, measurably false. It gives the wrong answer to the precession of the perihelion of Mercury.
http://physics.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node98.html
It's wrong in a number of other ways. If Newtonian physics were not demonstrably wrong, Einstein wouldn't have been famous. To find out how wrong Newtonian physics is, you have two alternatives: experiment, and employment of a more accurate theory. Experiment is the desideratum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_general_relativity
Newtonian physics gives approximately the right answer in many practical applications, and is easier to apply and more intuitive for most people. That's why it is still used. Not because it is true, in the sense that mathematical theorems are true.
A slight detour:
Euclidean geometry is true, regarded as mathematics: IF a THEN b.
Euclidean geometry is useful for designing and building a house, because it comes close enough to the truth to enable drawing plans, ordering materials, cutting things up and nailing them together. The "IF a" part is not quite satisfied. But the usefulness of Euclidean geometry lies in the fact that you're pretty close to the "IF a" part, then the "THEN b" part can be pretty close to right as well. Note that I said "can be" not "is".
Back to the main road:
The problem with particle physics and general relativity is that when general relativity is applied to the subatomic world, experiments contradict its predictions. It is demonstrably false in this regime. Yet it is the most accurate theory of the universe at large scales devised so far.
I have a hard time accepting the argument that something is true because it is still used. Consider an extreme case. There are four major religions flourishing on the planet. Each contradicts the others. They can't all be true. At least one of them has to be wrong. Yet each has billions of believers, whose behavior is influenced by their beliefs. I don't think that makes all of them true.
Physical theories, like religions, are the products of the human intellect, a notoriously fallible entity. I have a hard time accepting that something is true just because people still use it. People think they can predict the stock market. They spend countless man-hours working at it, and lose billions of dollars betting on the results. Sometimes they get lucky, and they are declared to be geniuses. Other people imitate them and lose their a$$ and all the fixtures.
The scientific attitude is one of the deepest possible skepticism. Theories are applied, but people are always on the lookout for a wrong prediction, and many are prepared to propose a modification of a theory, or to discard it altogether and start with a clean sheet of paper. When the discovery of the Higgs Boson was announced, there was a chorus of disappointment from many particle physicists. They regretted the disappearance of an opportunity for new discoveries.
One of my close friends is a founder of the Academy of Forensic Engineering. He wins court cases all the time with Newtonian physics. I'm sure some judges and juries think his calculations are true. But if you ask him, he'll say the calculations are accurate enough to arrive at a legal decision.
What's the difference between this result and truth? My friend knows how to calculate how close he has come to the truth.
RNJ
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Date Sep. 12 2013 18:39:38
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha
quote:
ORIGINAL: El Kiko
Dear Mr Jernigan ,,
While I enjoy reading your posts, and of others, do you ever write posts that are short and to the point. ?
Maybe 1 or 2 sentences ?
Like this ?
Brevity is no gaurantee of gettin to th
Nahhh...once I get wound up, I just.....
Fact is, the last job I had, for many years, I spent an average of at least one day a week writing, probably more. I got fairly fast. Given the poor quality of what I put up here, I can probably write it about as fast as it can be read.
Plus I'm bored today. Circumstances prevent some of my usual activities, so I sit at the keyboard, giving the world the benefit of my deep thoughts.
RNJ
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Date Sep. 12 2013 22:12:48
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
Plus I'm bored today. Circumstances prevent some of my usual activities, so I sit at the keyboard, giving the world the benefit of my deep thoughts.
RNJ
Well Richard it could be much worse.
I saw this coming so I typed this on the last page.
So I just typed 'Truth' into google and guess what, no hits. I typed again... the same. Third time the charm and the ghost of Feynman himself appeared, he was clearly in some distress and under some kind of compulsion. As his mask of pain eased momentarily he said, through gritted teeth,
'Google has instructed me to inform you that no definition of truth may be offered until a unified field theory has been formulated... although Google is of course itself fully aware of the unified field theory it has decided to allow humanity to discover it at it's own pace...... because of free will and whatnot....'
'Surely', I shouted in mounting panic, 'There are other truths within the realms of human experience ? Other perspectives........love....the smell of fresh coffee gurgling smiling babies ...... snickers bars !!!!'
Luckily Richard managed a smile and said
' Well my mum always said ''Boys will be Boys'''
So there we have it.
Did my attempts to head off this particular impasse lead to anything. No not in the least. The tone perhaps too facetious (perhaps  ), the allusions obvious to me but possibly objectively arcane. The hint that truth must obviously be rooted in the human experience ......ignored. The lighthearted admission of the infantile nature of all such musings, and intended to include myself as possibly the worst offender also ignored. The Richard of course Richard Feynman ( a noted provocateur as Ricardo's quote demonstrates)
So when Kiko chided you (in his own good natured way) I chided back because I appreciated your generosity in taking the time to flesh out my all too sketchy allusions.
Still at least we have yet to descend into a discussion on the existence of parallell universes which would be allowed by the formulation of a unified theory which would permit tinkerings with the cosmological constant that didn't lead to negative possiblilites.
If we reached that point then we would of course have to all decant to the all to depressing parallel thread. Or brush up on our Philip K Dick.
@Ricardo if you enjoy Feynman then you might enjoy Steven Weissberg's 'Dreams of a Final Theory' He fleshes out Mr Jernigans observations on the limitations of both Newtonian mechanics and the standard model. He also has a refreshing take on the nature of beauty and is always at pains to point out the difference between what he knows and what he hopes for.
And of course truth is a term with manifold definitions. And in coining the phrase 'The Wisdom of Clowns' I was of course attempting to include myself by equipping myself with a red nose and bow tie. Of course the wisdom of crowds is only appropriate for some definitions of truth. For example a consensus taken of the physical shape of the earth taken in the fifth century would be very unlikely to provide us with the correct answer.
And so finally with that last allusion to the abuse of statistics and the frequent overstatement of their power we find ourselves back on topic. You know this threads original topic ..... about surveys.
Anyway sorry Kiko, there you have a long post with no style or brevity.......
now.....where did I put my beer.
D.
D.
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Date Sep. 12 2013 22:52:25
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Richard tells fabulous stories, 99.9 percent of which are totally true. But watch out for that .09 percent , he will pull your leg off.
Story telling is an old southern/southwestern/Mexican tradition. It ran deep and strong in my father's side of the family. But the tradition is beginning to fade. Too many yankees moving to Texas, kids watching too much TV.
The outstanding story teller I know of my generation is a fellow math and physics student at the University of Texas. Often when I travel around Texas and the subject of my university days comes up, I am asked whether I know him. He has an engaging and colorful story for every occasion. When the story is particularly colorful and amusing, some listener will ask, "Did that really happen?"
The question is put, not to determine the truth or falsity of the story, but to elicit the inevitable response, delivered with a puckish grin, "Based on fact. Absolutely, based on fact."
RNJ
...but I don't remember telling Stephen any stretchers....hmmm...
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Date Sep. 14 2013 17:58:07
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guitarbuddha
Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Richard tells fabulous stories, 99.9 percent of which are totally true. But watch out for that .09 percent , he will pull your leg off.
Story telling is an old southern/southwestern/Mexican tradition. It ran deep and strong in my father's side of the family. But the tradition is beginning to fade. Too many yankees moving to Texas, kids watching too much TV.
The outstanding story teller I know of my generation is a fellow math and physics student at the University of Texas. Often when I travel around Texas and the subject of my university days comes up, I am asked whether I know him. He has an engaging and colorful story for every occasion. When the story is particularly colorful and amusing, some listener will ask, "Did that really happen?"
The question is put, not to determine the truth or falsity of the story, but to elicit the inevitable response, delivered with a puckish grin, "Based on fact. Absolutely, based on fact."
RNJ
...but I don't remember telling Stephen any stretchers....hmmm...
You gotta love Cormac Mcarthy's take on the Texan story telling tradition. As a Texan himself I am sure Cormac is being affectionate.
Two mountain lions escape from the L.A. Zoo. They decide to get out of California. When they get to Oklahoma, they decide to split up to shake off their pursuers. One goes south to Texas and the other heads north.
A few months later, the one which had headed north decided to go see how the one in Texas was faring. He trots on down and finds a thin, mangy, starving creature that used to be his friend.
“What happened to you?”
“I’ve been eating Texans, and there’s just no nutrition in them.”
“Let’s go hunting. You need some food.”
So they go hunting. Pretty soon they come to a Circle K and wait by the pick up truck for the owner. A 5’6”, 200 pound, bearded, red T shirted man carrying a case of Lone Star steps out. The starving mountain lion jumps out, roars, attacks the man and eats him.
The other mountain lion pads over, shaking his head side to side, “There’s your problem. Your scaring the **** of them. Don’t you know when you scare the **** out of a texan, there’s nothing left but skin and bones?”
(From 'The Crossing')
D.
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Date Sep. 14 2013 18:11:57
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aeolus
Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
You gotta love Cormac Mcarthy's take on the Texan story telling tradition. As a Texan himself I am sure Cormac is being affectionate.
Two mountain lions escape from the L.A. Zoo. They decide to get out of California. When they get to Oklahoma, they decide to split up to shake off their pursuers. One goes south to Texas and the other heads north.
A few months later, the one which had headed north decided to go see how the one in Texas was faring. He trots on down and finds a thin, mangy, starving creature that used to be his friend.
“What happened to you?”
“I’ve been eating Texans, and there’s just no nutrition in them.”
“Let’s go hunting. You need some food.”
So they go hunting. Pretty soon they come to a Circle K and wait by the pick up truck for the owner. A 5’6”, 200 pound, bearded, red T shirted man carrying a case of Lone Star steps out. The starving mountain lion jumps out, roars, attacks the man and eats him.
The other mountain lion pads over, shaking his head side to side, “There’s your problem. Your scaring the **** of them. Don’t you know when you scare the **** out of a texan, there’s nothing left but skin and bones?”
(From 'The Crossing')
That's not a tall tale that's a dumb joke. I think J. Frank Dobie was the genuine article for Texas stories. We had a copy of Coronado's Children around the house growing up that I read and read and then read it again. I still have it. It's about buried treasure and lost mines.
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Date Sep. 14 2013 18:38:55
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: emotion in music in general and ... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
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quote:
You gotta love Cormac Mcarthy's take on the Texan story telling tradition. As a Texan himself I am sure Cormac is being affectionate.
Glad to see another reader who appreciates Cormac McCarthy, GuitarBuddha. One small correction, though. Cormac McCarthy is not a Texan. He was born in Rhode Island, and at the age of four his family moved to Knoxville, Tennessee, where he grew up.
I very much enjoyed The Border Trilogy: "All the Pretty Horses," "The Crossing," and "Cities of the Plain." But by far I think his masterpiece, and one that is already considered an American literary classic, is "Blood Meridian." It is about a group of scalp-hunters on the Texas-Mexico borderlands around 1848-1850, and is loosely based on an actual group of scalp-hunters known as the Glanton Gang, after their leader John Joel Glanton
The story is incredibly violent, but beautifully written. Some critics have compared it to Melville's "Moby Dick," as it contains themes of Good and Evil, with elements of Zoroastrian-Manichaeism and Gnosticism, as well as Theodicy (The philosophical or theological attempt to justify the existence of that which is good in a world which contains so much evil).
In my opinion, it is McCarthy's masterpiece. I don't see how he could ever surpass it.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Sep. 14 2013 18:49:25
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