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RE: Most Underrated
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: runner
quote:
Buleria, Solea and Siguiyira are really the only things going on. The other toques are just to make space and take you away from solea, buleria, and siguriya long enough for you to miss them and wish someone would stop dancing that retarded happy alegrias so the singer would sing solea. The only thing that really is a good distraction from the main three are an ass kicking well sung tangos
I 'm really glad that I am no longer the only one who can be thought of as having narrow views in flamenco, though I like (by definition) ass kicking well sung anythings--who doesn't?
runner
THat quote was meant to be sarcastic (I hope), so rest assured you remain the "only one" with narrow views on flamenco, congrats.
About juanito serrano...I have an old record I picked up:flamenco fenomeno...elektra records. No date, but the jacket talks of a debut concert in NYC 1962. Toward the end it describes the second recording session of Serrano for elektra (no name perhaps THIS record is supposed to be it??), and the engineer must tell folks no electronic trickery or speeding up of tapes was done. What an odd thing to put on record jacket, especially when you hear the first track, "flamenco variations on autumn leaves", a ridiculous fast buleria with tons of notes pouring out in a short 2 min, 45 secondes. I couldn't believe it was the same guy as I knew that recording in the 90's....but a quick check with my guitar (capo 4 he uses for this) and hearing some other tracks at normal tempos, it's so obviously sped up it's comical.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 18 2015 18:36:25
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jmb
Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain
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RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)
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Underated guitarists ... a controversial topic
In this World all the people and show business is obsessed by rating as the most important thing but in flamenco that's a wrong idea. cause, for example, what would be the yield of Diego del Gastor for the show business doing tours the World?
An anectote, that I guess flamenco fans has heard sometimes from tomatito: When he was young he were playing in a tablao and there were for the Great "Beni de Cádiz" and Camarón. El Bení de Cádiz hated to play with Tomatito. He say that he was not clear and that it was diffciult to enter in the compás of Tomatito. For El Beni, he was not good tocaor. Camarón just told El Beni, that he should let Tomatito grow up as artist and wait. Some years before as all the enviroment of camaron said "Camaron always was with 'his' Tomatito". For many people the so warming 'toque' of Tomatito for Camarón was never better with other tocaores (even Lucía).
Flamenco relies on expression. In the case of guitar, technique is really important, because as the wise master Paco Sánchez said "if fingers does no do what your mind want, it is really difficult that you could express your feelings". But once a technical level has been get, other issues are really important and things are a nor black or white. Morente in the end of his life was also very sarcastic about the current hegemony of 'compás' and doing the things like a metronome. Final mixture of singer and guitarist could be very different depending on the guitarist and the singer.
Moraito, for example, had an amazing 'toque' for singers in this way and much better that other skiller only-solist guitarists. And other issues as be a good teacher is other great facet that nobody include in rating.
_____________________________
Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!
Sing and string - other flamenco blog
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2015 8:13:34
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Most Underrated (in reply to jmb)
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quote:
An anectote, that I guess flamenco fans has heard sometimes from tomatito: When he was young he were playing in a tablao and there were for the Great "Beni de Cádiz" and Camarón. El Bení de Cádiz hated to play with Tomatito. He say that he was not clear and that it was diffciult to enter in the compás of Tomatito. For El Beni, he was not good tocaor. Camarón just told El Beni, that he should let Tomatito grow up as artist and wait. Some years before as all the enviroment of camaron said "Camaron always was with 'his' Tomatito". For many people the so warming 'toque' of Tomatito for Camarón was never better with other tocaores (even Lucía).
Intersting story. Beni was a fantastic singer IMO....some called him a "Caracolero" but I don't think so much, he had his own things for sure. Tomatito I consider a "paquero" if that makes sense...he accompanies very much in the style of PDL. For me the best accompanist of Camaron (and othe cantaores for that matter) was Cepero. But that is my taste. Later on, PDL and Tomatito only play for camaroneros it seems....pretty one dimensional if you want to make comparisons. Tomatito plays for Pansequito, the only non camaronero I know of. I admit, I am of the opinion that Camaron took some things from Pansequito, so not much of a stretch. But I give huge kudos for Tomatito's accompaniment of the jerezanos (festeros) in the juerga (Zambo and Fernando de La Morena)...he really has a different soniquete there, very refreshing, and reveals he knows what he is doing perfectly well. I only hope for more from him with different cantaores. But, saddly, I dont' think there is much variety left.
As for moraito, to me he was a very methodical "blue print" type of accompanist. Never took any risk and never made a mistake. Cepero for me was more adventurous and involved with the different singers. But Moraito for sure is exemplary for his playing, beyond only jerezanos. But who was HIS favorite singer? It may surprise some considering all the greats he played for.
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |
Date Jan. 19 2015 19:54:41
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jmb
Posts: 119
Joined: Oct. 14 2014
From: Vallecas - Madrid - Spain
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RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Intersting story. Beni was a fantastic singer IMO....some called him a "Caracolero" but I don't think so much, he had his own things for sure. Tomatito I consider a "paquero" if that makes sense...he accompanies very much in the style of PDL. For me the best accompanist of Camaron (and othe cantaores for that matter) was Cepero. But that is my taste. Later on, PDL and Tomatito only play for camaroneros it seems....pretty one dimensional if you want to make comparisons. Tomatito plays for Pansequito, the only non camaronero I know of. I admit, I am of the opinion that Camaron took some things from Pansequito, so not much of a stretch. But I give huge kudos for Tomatito's accompaniment of the jerezanos (festeros) in the juerga (Zambo and Fernando de La Morena)...he really has a different soniquete there, very refreshing, and reveals he knows what he is doing perfectly well. I only hope for more from him with different cantaores. But, saddly, I dont' think there is much variety left.
As for Moraito, to me he was a very methodical "blue print" type of accompanist. Never took any risk and never made a mistake. Cepero for me was more adventurous and involved with the different singers. But Moraito for sure is exemplary for his playing, beyond only jerezanos. But who was HIS favorite singer? It may surprise some considering all the greats he played for.
The tricky and unfair issue of rate and underrate tocaores is that flamenco is interaction and things well done. Let me talk about these three tocaores from my experience:
I've attended many times to Cepero. Cepero, and for me he is unclassifiable, because he has its own style and he is a great master. I remember a great night were he and the master Rancapino turned the tables with a really hostile audience (they were playing with Diego el Cigala hooligans in front for him waiting for his leader[]) in Madrid in the 90's. ¿How can you rate it? It seemed impossible even with SuperRancapino and they do it! 
Respecting Morao, I am biased. By chance I met him in the Felipe Conde's shop of when I was choosing my, now, favorite guitar several years ago with a good friend that played quiet well. He was there previous to perform in the Teatro Real de Madrid with Mercé with other people. We start talking with him and he helps us to choose my guitar (“Remember always that you are choosing YOUR guitar, not a Conde…” he said me). I thing that both them and us felt comfortable.
I always remember him playing several wonderful falsetas from the album with a blanca. and in certain moment, we comment him that it was wonderful his documentary with of Manuel Agujetas and he say us 'Yeah! I know, because this is the modern ... but…' and start playing some simple and amazing falsetas by siguirillas quite concentrated and I feel the true pellizco there.... In the best, he stop, smile (as always) and said us:"Yeah! These are very old falsetas but are really fantastic don’t you?... She (the guitar) is shouting that somebody has to start singing his pains. I doubt that we(?) could do some similar...". IMHO, I think that the Master Maorao does not understood flamenco guitar without provoking a true interaction with other artists.
I heard him on many occasions (live) supporting several cantaores and I doubt that many of the current soloists could not do it better. He gets a delicatessen where the singer was the starring part. There are great guitarists that had developed the harmony, technique and melody in the guitar and this things are more visible ... But I think that there are others that are great masters studding the close interaction and search of equilibrium in the cante (poetry)-guitar. I think Morao, Moraito, is one of them. Because of this, I think he has not ‘HIS’ Cantaor because he loved so much cante that he was good with all them: Mercé, Torta, Moneo, etc…
IMHO, the sentence of Sabicas to Paco de Lucía "You have to done your own falsetas" it's good but is not the only. (Sabicas also said "Paco why are you doing so strange things if you play flamenco very well?"  )
Some comments of morao from Internet about his vision:
"Yo defiendo el flamenco tradicional, porque sin eso, no hay flamenco, o sea, que la fusión y todo lo que están haciendo ahora, estoy de acuerdo, es muy bonito, es muy moderno, eso está muy bien, hay que investigar, no hay que quedarse dormido, el flamenco no puede estar estancado ¿no?, pero sin el flamenco clásico, digamos la raíz…es de donde tiene que partir todo, sin principio, no hay historia".
"Hoy en día ¿tiene más importancia la guitarra que el cante? No, cada uno está en su sitio…la guitarra vino después, no lleva tanto tiempo como el cante, siempre va detrás."
Concerning Tomate, his father was Miguel el Tomate, his father was guitarist, his uncle Niño Miguel, and Juan Habichuela influenced him too. PdL learnt too from all these people and you can find thinks from them and others in Tomatito. Often, aficionados he is compared with PdL, but these comparison are hateful, because Tomatito was also there supporting Paco and Camarón in his albums and because, of course, his vital circumstances and Paco’s circumstances are different.
Finally, is any of these three better o less for me? NO. Because they interact and learn from each other, with PdL and with lots of flamencos (singers, dancers…).
_____________________________
Suenas payo ¡y lo sabes!
Sing and string - other flamenco blog
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Date Jan. 20 2015 15:00:01
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