RE: Most Underrated

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RE: Most Underrated

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Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

If ever there was an area where "it is all a matter of taste", it would involve favorite guitarists. For instance, most everyone likes (or says they like) Manuel Morao as an accompanist, but, for me, there are just too many notes! I listen to Morao accompanying Aurelio de Cadiz on the Mairena anthology, when Aurelio's voice was perhaps at its peak of expressiveness, and the poor man is buried alive under Morao's torrent. I think: how great would it have been had Aurelio been supported by someone like Pedro Soler or Roman el Granaino? Donn Pohren made this same observation about Morao years ago; it's certainly not new with me, but the lesson is clear: give me guitarists like Perico el del Lunar, Paco Aguilera, Paco del Gastor, Antonio Arenas--the list is long-- who earned their daily crust by working closely with the cantaor(a) to most effectively draw out the essence of the cante. What else is flamenco guitar for?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2013 13:12:18

akatune

Posts: 188
Joined: Mar. 28 2008

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

Have you guys ever heard of this guy? Very modern, yet tasteful. He plays hard.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2013 13:30:57

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

I might as well continue down the path of mild (wild?) heresy that I began to tread when stating that Manuel Morao was not well suited to accompany Aurelio (or anybody?)--regarding Morao and La Paquera, I much prefer the team of Juan Maya and Manolo Sanlucar as La Paquera's partners. I feel that Morao did Terremoto no favors either as his accompanist, by essentially enabling the tempestuous Terremoto, when a more controlled, restrained guitarist might have helped Terremoto to better harness and direct his energy (but I could be wrong!)

Regarding more recent accompanists, I find Antonio Gomez accompanying Rosario Lopez to offer an interesting, more "modern", toque. I agree with Estebanana about Juan Carmona "Habichuela"; I like Ricardo Miño's playing also.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2013 13:48:23

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)

quote:

I might as well continue down the path of mild (wild?) heresy that I began to tread when stating that Manuel Morao was not well suited to accompany Aurelio (or anybody?)--regarding Morao and La Paquera, I much prefer the team of Juan Maya and Manolo Sanlucar as La Paquera's partners. I feel that Morao did Terremoto no favors either as his accompanist, by essentially enabling the tempestuous Terremoto, when a more controlled, restrained guitarist might have helped Terremoto to better harness and direct his energy (but I could be wrong!)

Regarding more recent accompanists, I find Antonio Gomez accompanying Rosario Lopez to offer an interesting, more "modern", toque. I agree with Estebanana about Juan Carmona "Habichuela"; I like Ricardo Miño's playing also.

Playing the heretic is a good thing in flamenco. I love to say something outrageous about this or that guitar player and piss off the disciples, then go to my iTunes in the shop and listen the player I just dissed.

I have tried for many years to love Sabicas, and I just can't. The reason why is because after you hear modern Jerez players por bulerias nothing sounds better. Sabicas does not swing bulerias like that wonderful Jerez groove, or for that matter the kind of groove they do in Lebrija or like Paco, Tomatito and the other boys in that way. Once you hear that, how can you go backwards? For me, Buleria, Solea and Siguiyira are really the only things going on. The other toques are just to make space and take you away from solea, buleria, and siguriya long enough for you to miss them and wish someone would stop dancing that retarded happy alegrias so the singer would sing solea. The only thing that really is a good distraction from the main three are an ass kicking well sung tangos or martinete. And if the guitarist melts your face with alzapua in tangos and the singer is good, it is almost as good as a dancer doing delicious extra sixes in fiesta por buleria. When I think this way Sabicas seems like a dusty encyclopedia full of Fernando Sor exercises played por solea.

Nino Ricardo was better.

Feel the hate flow though you Luke, come to the dark side, I am your father.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 1:45:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)

quote:

but I could be wrong!)

Um, ya think??

quote:

Once you hear that, how can you go backwards?

Um..easily??

I am in an eye roll mood I guess. I am quite bored of everyone thinking (once they have discovered it) that this slowish bouncy groove swingy buleria of Moraito and Co. is the be all end all of buleria compas....or worse, that it is simply "jerez style"....

again it just pushes me towards pointing out MORAO Sr. again...hello, THAT is compas of jerez. Also, and more important a way to define it. Cepero too, and Parilla...that's soniquete big time from jerez, and it was always fast as ****. No slow groovy bouncy thing.

Then Sabicas, half compases all over, including his wicked endings that speed up. It is only different cuz he did fast scales or pushed tempo ad libitum. Flamenco has a wide scope and it's all good and the fact there are this differences is really beautiful.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 4:59:21

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to lukeofgod)

I dont hear comments about guitar playing often enough when having conversations about Manuel Molina... but he probably gets the credit he deserves (its hard to know from here in australia, where there are not many people educated about flamenco)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 5:01:41

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Cepero too, and Parilla...that's soniquete big time from jerez, and it was always fast as ****. No slow groovy bouncy thing.

Yeah I'd give you four or five Sabicas records for one Cepero disk.

Also you played right into my trap by elucidating the long trajectory of the developmet of Jerez toque.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 5:35:56

lukeofgod

Posts: 113
Joined: Jan. 11 2012
From: Bay Area- CA

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

I might as well continue down the path of mild (wild?) heresy that I began to tread when stating that Manuel Morao was not well suited to accompany Aurelio (or anybody?)--regarding Morao and La Paquera, I much prefer the team of Juan Maya and Manolo Sanlucar as La Paquera's partners. I feel that Morao did Terremoto no favors either as his accompanist, by essentially enabling the tempestuous Terremoto, when a more controlled, restrained guitarist might have helped Terremoto to better harness and direct his energy (but I could be wrong!)

Regarding more recent accompanists, I find Antonio Gomez accompanying Rosario Lopez to offer an interesting, more "modern", toque. I agree with Estebanana about Juan Carmona "Habichuela"; I like Ricardo Miño's playing also.

Feel the hate flow though you Luke, come to the dark side, I am your father.

Haha you are entitled to your opinion and I have nothing more than respect for someone who respectfully communicates it. Debate is inevitable in these types of threads. I encourage thoughtful conversation. But that's just me....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 6:39:53

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)

quote:

there are just too many notes!

….. as Emperor Joseph II said about Mozart – apparently what a lot of people thought at the time. I think that Pohren’s criticism of Morao shows a rather narrow outlook on flamenco.

For me the guitarists who don’t get the recognition they deserve are the great accompanists who don’t have solo guitar careers. Here are a couple of contrasting styles.

I heard Perico el del Lunar (padre b1894) accompanying a galazy of singers in the Zambra tablao in Madrid before it closed and again in London – Pericon de Cadiz, Mauel Vargas, Rafael Romero, Pepe “el culata”, Juan Vera, Manuela de Ronda. Never too many notes from Perico – by this time his right hand ring and little finger were out of action and he had adapted his playing to cope – but magical stuff. No videos exist as far as I know.

My second mention goes to Paco Cortes. He accompanying career spans working with Mario Maya (terrible mullet and flares), Enrique Morente and a long term association with Carmen Linares. Lots of notes here but I like it. Vive la difference!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 10:32:52

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

I've always liked Manuel's style myself. It is his dry sound that sold me on pegs for my Anders blanca. That and his Picassoesque contortions.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 11:53:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Escribano)

I love that too, posted that just the other day as a recommendation for non-standard cante.. I love his variety of attack on block chords.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 12:00:06

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

again it just pushes me towards pointing out MORAO Sr. again...hello, THAT is compas of jerez. Also, and more important a way to define it. Cepero too, and Parilla...that's soniquete big time from jerez, and it was always fast as ****. No slow groovy bouncy thing.

Then Sabicas, half compases all over, including his wicked endings that speed up. It is only different cuz he did fast scales or pushed tempo ad libitum. Flamenco has a wide scope and it's all good and the fact there are this differences is really beautiful.

So are you telling me that Jerez toque por buleria, siguiriya and solea por buleria compas is driving, hard hitting and fueled by perfectly aimed machine gun palmas that could cut a hole through the side of a steel ship?

And those extra sixes, oh boy those really make me excited in solo playing. !!!! Whooo whooo!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 13:22:13

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to RobJe)

RobJe: "I think that Pohren's criticism of Morao shows a rather narrow outlook on flamenco." Please elaborate on that; it is not at all clear what you mean. I think we all have rather narrow outlooks on flamenco--we all have likes and dislikes. Exception: there are those who like, or say they like, "everything" that they choose to call flamenco--"It's All Good!". Hard to have a discussion with such.

A fantasy for Ricardo: Terremoto and Morao have worked one another into frazzles, goading each other into frenzies of superheated "emotion". They are both drained, and Morao goes home tired but satisfied, leaving Terremoto still restless and feeling a new, deep emptiness within that he must find expression for. He stumbles in the late evening darkness into La Zambra, where he finds Perico alone, picking a few notes on his guitar--his trademark, spare, world-weary three-o'clock-in-the-morning toque filling the sad cafe. Perico senses Terremoto's need, invites him to his side, and begins to draw out from Terremoto the true, deep anguish within......

Siguiriyas, Soleares, Bulerias..... I think the hardest of the three to get across convincingly is bulerias; there are few that I find wholly satisfactory, compared with successfully executed siguiriyas and soleares. And, after so much emotional Sturm und Drang; it is often very pleasant to just sit back and enjoy the special pleasures and delights of well-sung and -played malaguenas, fandangos, cartageneras, tarantas. Maybe it is all good!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 14:47:16

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to runner)

quote:

Please elaborate on that; it is not at all clear what you mean. I think we all have rather narrow outlooks on flamenco--we all have likes and dislikes.

I might have been a bit hard on Pohren – it’s just that he often seemed to resist any developments in flamenco, comparing them unfavourably with what went on in own circle of artists and using terms such as “commercial” and “profits” to put them down. He claimed that great flamenco could only be experienced in the intimacy of the small juerga. I suggest that this is a narrow outlook on flamenco and it is no surprise therefore that he would have wished for a more subtle and gentle accompaniment to some of the older singers on the Anotologia del Cante Flamenco y Cante Gitano. Although he offers some faint praise for Morao’s playing on this recording, he also wrote “smashed ahead with the force of a bulldozer” and “not yet learned subtlety of expression” showing perhaps where he stood.

Sticking with my answer to the original question – accompanists are the unsung heroes, including the player you can hire to accompany the singers who have entered the concurso del cante flamenco at the local Pena and who will accompany 6 Soleas in an evening without repetition of any falsetas.

Outsiders (like us and Pohren) are not the most important arbiters of quality here – rather the singers and dancers who depend on their guitarists. Watch Carmen Linares (5.36 - 6.17) in the recording in my first post. She seems to approve. I spoke to her once in London and she was full of praise for Paco Cortes.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 19:58:16

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

He claimed that great flamenco could only be experienced in the intimacy of the small juerga.

Sad but true.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2013 23:01:11

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to RobJe)

I have a lot of respect for Donn Pohren: he talked the talk and walked the walk; he knew a heck of a lot about flamenco, and he was a man of decided opinions about what he liked (what he thought was real/good/authentic flamenco), and what he didn't. He knew his own mind. He was definitely not one of your "everything that is, or says it is, flamenco, is good" people. This does indeed make him a man of narrow views. But Pohren always tells you where he is and why he does or doesn't like this or that artist or practice--this is (my view) A Good Thing. I know I certainly do not agree with all of his notions, but over the years I've found him an excellent guide. We must also not forget Pohren's role in bringing knowledge of flamenco into the non-Spanish-speaking world, and in bringing a whole generation of young foreigners to Spain (especially to Morón) to become immersed in this amazing art.

RobJe: I think we agree--you, me, Donn Pohren--that accompanists are indeed the unsung heroes, and it is always heart-warming to see and hear the singers and dancers express their appreciation for their guitarist(s).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 0:29:05

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

My second mention goes to Paco Cortes. He accompanying career spans working with Mario Maya (terrible mullet and flares), Enrique Morente and a long term association with Carmen Linares. Lots of notes here but I like it. Vive la difference!

Mullets are underrated, I've always thought there should be a special award every year for best mullet and flamenco haircutter. Perhaps a simple Honorable Mention and small trophy of a head with a bronze mullet.

Pohren would probably have objected, but I like the idea.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 2:29:27

Guest

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to estebanana)

Maybe a sartorial award?
these shirts are serious contenders ...
Fashion aside great fan of the cortes brothers...
http://youtu.be/L78zYWT0D7w

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 3:08:52

aloysius

Posts: 233
Joined: Apr. 7 2005
From: Adelaide, Australia

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to lukeofgod)

I would say Agustin Carbonell and Jin Oki. Also Manuel Parrilla - both of them (Parrilla de Jerez and his nephew).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2013 4:09:23

marduk

Posts: 600
Joined: Feb. 3 2010

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

I've always liked Manuel's style myself. It is his dry sound that sold me on pegs for my Anders blanca. That and his Picassoesque contortions.

I love the way he can bring out a simple melody and still be completely interesting. I also really enjoy listening to the lole y manuel albums with headphones so you can hear the tracks seperately..

Manuel Molina is someone I listen to heaps

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2013 16:07:36

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

All guitarists mentioned in this thread are amazing... a player I feel is really quite something amongst the younger guys is Juan Diego Mateos... I guess that you could say that he does not get the credit he deserves, although this is not totally true. He's definitely doing his own thing, which is quite unique.

Just check his "Respira!" album out if you haven't, it's a lesson in what I like to call "less-is-more avant-garde flamenco"!! His first album entitled "Luminaria", it's also very very good!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2013 18:52:11

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

Oh... and Javier Patino is another really cool player who deserves more attention!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2013 18:57:16

machopicasso

Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to avimuno)

quote:

a player I feel is really quite something amongst the younger guys is Juan Diego Mateos...

Has Juan Diego done, or recorded, anything since that video (and the other nice ones) posted in 2008?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2013 9:51:13

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Of course...but it's 2013 and it's always "Moraito..." as in his nephew...and as if his style is somehow antiquated or simplistic, rarely discussed in detail as other players.

Thanks for that. I'd never heard of Moraito before, really enjoying his music now.

***
Ps great thread, come across some great music here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Mullets are underrated, I've always thought there should be a special award every year for best mullet and flamenco haircutter. Perhaps a simple Honorable Mention and small trophy of a head with a bronze mullet.

+1.

There need to be more mullets in flamenco.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2013 15:27:13

avimuno

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Has Juan Diego done, or recorded, anything since that video (and the other nice ones) posted in 2008?

Respira! came out in 2010 if I remember correctly... not sure what he's up to these days.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 7 2013 10:08:21

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Well, he wasn’t underrated in the ’50s: he and Juanito Serrano were the two young fenómenos.

I know this is an old thread, but...

Paul, can you (or anyone else) tell me more about Juanito Serrano? I've recently been listening to more Paquera de Jerez, and am really liking his style.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 23:04:06

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Sabicas seems like a dusty encyclopedia full of Fernando Sor exercises played por solea.

Hah! Stephen, if you ever stop building guitars you should become a writer. Your posts are always one of the highlights of the forum but this one was particularly funny, and insightful as always.

quote:

Buleria, Solea and Siguiyira are really the only things going on. The other toques are just to make space and take you away from solea, buleria, and siguriya long enough for you to miss them and wish someone would stop dancing that retarded happy alegrias so the singer would sing solea. The only thing that really is a good distraction from the main three are an ass kicking well sung tangos

I think you're speaking the truth that most of us believe inside, but maybe aren't honest enough with ourselves, trying to be good aficionados, to say.

Though I do like playing alegrias, especially por medio...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 23:21:41

hhmusic

Posts: 164
Joined: May 13 2006

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to hhmusic)

This probably isn't necessary, but just to be clear, I'm asking about Juanito, not Juan, Serrano.

(Please tell me Juanito didn't become Juan in his old age...)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 23:24:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to hhmusic)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hhmusic

quote:

Sabicas seems like a dusty encyclopedia full of Fernando Sor exercises played por solea.

Aguado I think.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2015 23:25:28

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Most Underrated (in reply to hhmusic)

quote:

Buleria, Solea and Siguiyira are really the only things going on. The other toques are just to make space and take you away from solea, buleria, and siguriya long enough for you to miss them and wish someone would stop dancing that retarded happy alegrias so the singer would sing solea. The only thing that really is a good distraction from the main three are an ass kicking well sung tangos

I 'm really glad that I am no longer the only one who can be thought of as having narrow views in flamenco, though I like (by definition) ass kicking well sung anythings--who doesn't?

runner

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 17 2015 0:08:06