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Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
What's the deal with steel string gu...
So... you know we have a boutique guitar store here in Tempe. They have about 10 classicals, one factory flamenco, and 200 Martins or Santa Clara or whatever it's called. Do you guys like steel stringed guitars? Do you really need to spend $10,000 on something you whack at with a pick and kind of sounds like a banjo? Does the extra five pounds of mother-of-pearl make it play better?
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
Do you guys like steel stringed guitars? Do you really need to spend $10,000 on something you whack at with a pick and kind of sounds like a banjo? Does the extra five pounds of mother-of-pearl make it play better?
Com'n, Miguel, there is more to steel strings than strumming. I took a 3 year break to re-learn fingerpicking on a good acoustic guitar, but ultimately I do favor the sound of Nylon Strings on a Blanca.
However, here is something I had posted before, a fine example of elegantly playing a mother-of-pearl decorated, Martin [steel strings]:
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
So... you know we have a boutique guitar store here in Tempe. They have about 10 classicals, one factory flamenco, and 200 Martins or Santa Clara or whatever it's called. Do you guys like steel stringed guitars? Do you really need to spend $10,000 on something you whack at with a pick and kind of sounds like a banjo? Does the extra five pounds of mother-of-pearl make it play better?
The same could be said for a 10k flamenco and vice versa. Go watch Tommy Emmanuel and see what kind of great virtuosity can happen on a steel string. And to answer your question yes, there can be a ton of difference between different steel string makers in regards to tone and build quality. Same with any guitar.
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
I played steel string for 20 years before discovering flamenco. I'm not into overly flashly MOP inlaid guitars either, but there are certainly builders out there rightfully demanding very high prices for their work. Some examples I've played are guitars by Michael Greenfield, Marc Beneteau and Grit Laskin.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Just another beautiful of Apollon´s daughters.
Besides, some are capable of playing steel similar to flamenco players. I recall one guy who was doing insane stuff. Many of the notes as harmonics. He would even flip out on up to three guitars at once.
He seemed to have fingers of stone. ( PdL for instance couldn´t do it. I remember him mentioning that he once on a party played on a steeler and minced his fingertips.) Too bad I don´t remember that artist´s name.
There are thousands of stunning pieces throughout the genres that owe their charme to the special flair of acoustic or electric guitar. These pieces would had not turned out that way with nylon.
To my ears the two kind of strings each have their own strengths.
Ruphus
PS: Can you imagine Lynyrd Skynyrd´s "Simple Man", ... J.J. Cale´s laid-back stuff ... George Harrison´s "While My Guitar Gently Wheeps" on nylon? "Wish You Where Here"?
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Steel string guitars are just a beautiful. A guitar is a guitar. Regardless of what kind of strings are on it. A lot of great music has come from a steel string guitar. I too was surprised Miguel asked this question. What about someone spending 20K on a Reyes that will also be whacked with golpes?
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to TANúñez)
I just don't like them. Well, I do for strumming around the campfire and eating S-mores. They do sound better for folkie music, no doubt. Perhaps I just haven't been exposed to the setting where steel string guitar really shines. I have faint memories of "Every Rose Has Its Thorn", where the whole key to the thing is playing that G chord with the D on the 2nd string and the C chord with the G on the 1st string. A nice, fat, homey sound. But not a $10,000 sound.
And I actually agree that you don't need a $20,000 flamenco. Flamenco guitar is an accompanist art where the guitar takes 3rd place out of three factors. There's not $10,000 worth of sonic real estate behind a hoarse-voiced singer and a stamping dancer. I'm unconvinced Sabicas or Paco would have made inferior records if they had been forced to pick up different guitars.
I can see a $10,000 classical guitar, though. That guy has to sit up there in his tuxedo all by himself and has to account for the entire musical experience. Nothing to hide behind, no excuses.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Perhaps I just haven't been exposed to the setting where steel string guitar really shines.
>scratch head<
While living in the west. In the USA. In Airzona. ... ????????????? What about the music I mentioned above, as a slice of the musical universe that is based on the specific sound of steel strings? Never heard? Never been moved?
I mean I know what musical frigidity is. Have wittnessed it with folks who grow up with musical monotony.
But your cases must be very different with the diverse medial exposure you must have had and an obviously given sense for variety and rich harmony that after all must have made you appreciate flamenco.
Should you have access to a title named "I Got The Same Old Blues Again" from an artist named J.J. Cale, or say Edgar Broughton Band´s "Evening Over Rooftops", would you feel again that steel doesn´t shine? ( No rhetoric question. Really curious about it.)
Ruphus
PS: Besides; I suggest that "I Got The Same Old Blues Again" hits quite the same receptors like the ones activated with flamenco.
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Ruphus)
quote:
There are thousands of stunning pieces throughout the genres that owe their charme to the special flair of acoustic or electric guitar. These pieces would had not turned out that way with nylon.
Very true. Listen to Nic Jones or Nick Drake. Or Pierre Bensusan.
There are some kinds of music you don’t use a Spanish guitar for, any more than you’d use a hammer for turning screws.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Ruphus)
Ruphus, I listened to the two tracks you just recommended. I didn't hear anything in the tone of the guitars that especially moved me or that seemed aesthetically pleasing, so mabye they aren't the best example. "They Call Me the Breeze", on the other hand, grooves and features a much richer steel-string sound. I was a big blues fan (JJ Cale ain't blues) for many years, but I never honed in on the tone quality of the guitars. I'm in the camp of "the guitar is a tool", not "the guitar is an eargasm just waiting for an amateur to clunk on it".
GJ, I do like that clip you posted. Still... not feeling the steel strings too much. There are probably some just drop-dead gorgeous banjos out there, too.
It's my understanding that guitars had gut strings before the Spaniards brought it to the New World. The gut didn't work too well on the ships, so they used metal wire. Back in those days, a set of gut strings cost about as much as the guitar.
As far as ukulele players go, I like John King (RIP) and James Hill. That guy is amazing!
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Hi Miguel,
J.J. Cale to me is about first eight albums of all grooving stuff ( diverse kind of styles aside of his invention of laid-back ), one piece after the other. Only best with the orginal studio tracks ( live great too, but no that perfect ).
Anyway, it´s been interesting to hear of your perception ( that brought back memories of other less receptive folks too ), which is near impossible for me to comprehend, but nonetheless worth considering.
Because I am exactly the guy you describe. Since the age of six* or so totally enchanted by that "eargasm just waiting for an amateur to clunk on it". - Though hoping you didn´t mean any of the playing in the recommended tracks. What can be done with this instrument to my ears is "only" the icing on the sonic cake.
BTW, J.J. to me is not only the most plentiful and original groove writer in the world, but also the best guitar player. Not technically, mind you, his posture and everything are actually so messed up that you can only wonder how he gets it all done ... But in terms of touch, timing and phrasing ( or shall I just say "expression") he is second to none.
That is notwithstanding the fact that my personal desert island guitar would be a nylon strung, and of my love for flamenco, Spanish / Latin and classical guitar.
Ruphus
* At that time you would hardly get to hear a single note of nylon string anywhere in Germany´s main stream media. The first guitar sounds that got me hooked hence where sounds of acoustic guitars that came with western movies. Either when the cowboys would take a seat at the campfire and strum an axe, or in the soundtrack.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Miguel, I think steel string guitar is just not your thing. Not a good thing or bad thing. Just your tastes. Plain and simple. I love steel string but I don't like every artist who plays them. Same with flamenco. Love flamenco guitar but not all flamenco guitarists.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to TANúñez)
Tom, you're probably right, it's just not my thing. I watched a few Tommy Emmanuel vids and McKee. They're good players, no doubt, great facility and groove. I just feel there's something missing in that genre. And there is something about the steel string sound aesthetic that doesn't work for me. It's tricky, because it probably has to do with associations just as much as anything else.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
I watched a few Tommy Emmanuel vids and McKee. They're good players, no doubt, great facility and groove. I just feel there's something missing in that genre. And
Like compas?
I've seen Tommy, he is impressive, a wonderful player. I even like that he skins his Maton alive. He's a cult figure to some in Kentucky-Tennessee area.
Miguel steel strung instruments go way back, the Cittern is from the Renaissance. And there are modern steel string guitars that you can play baroque music in and it sounds really good. Find a Lowden and play Bach on it. You might find yourself carrying two guitars to a gig.
Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
I watched a few Tommy Emmanuel vids and McKee. They're good players, no doubt, great facility and groove. I just feel there's something missing in that genre.
IMHO it’s merely something missing in Tommy Emmanuel. Good technician, of course, but otherwise no clue. Carlos Montoya syndrome — technical display for its own sake.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Tommy Emmanuel is like salsa that is way too hot, a bit is good, but a whole bowl full is not edible. He is a showman and he puts it on because lots of folks go see him for that burning rubber in the parking lot kind of appeal. He plays the guitar like it's a nitro fueled dragster. He does have a string quartet he travels with and spends half the night playing with them. I liked that better.
He is famous for this schtick where to uses the top of his guitar like a percussion instrument, literally skinning the top with the pick.
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Guitars are soulful instruments anyway. From mediocre mass production to fine handcrafted specimens, with the latter bearing just the more of spirit.
Some ears only seem to not perceive certain timbre well, like Miguel with steelers or a former girl friend of mine to whom nylon stringed guitars must have appeared relatively blund in comparison to acoustics and e-guitars.
And in Middle Age some troubadors might have received the bucket of water from the lady on the balcony, despite of playing well. Possibly for reasons not related to the instrument as such.
Ruphus
PS: I know a chap here to whom guitars won´t speak either. He has only ears for the local 3-string stick neck steeler. ( And can´t appreciate any music outside the traditional anaemia.)
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Tommy Emmanuel is like salsa that is way too hot, a bit is good, but a whole bowl full is not edible. He is a showman and he puts it on because lots of folks go see him for that burning rubber in the parking lot kind of appeal. He plays the guitar like it's a nitro fueled dragster.
That's a great description of TE! You can't fault the guy for his success because he is a great entertainer and technician, but it's funny that it's typically casual music fans and non-musicians that are so drawn to him. Many music aficionados and musicians that I've talked to have comments similar to yours.
It's funny how you hear music differently over the years as your tastes change. For example, I was heavy into solo fingerstyle guitar for many years. Now that I've been listening to 80% flamenco for the past 3 years, some music sounds different to me now. Good flamenco has a certain potency that I crave and miss in other genres.
Anyway, let me submit a few examples of steel string based music that touches me in my special place
Proud to call this guy my friend - Canadian fingerstyle wiz Don Ross on a baritone guitar:
The late great Michael Hedges:
Pierre Bensusan - musical genius IMO, I was lucky to see him a few years back:
And something a bit different - this guy is one of my favorite singers/performers of all time - Glen Hansard:
Here's a random little blurb about Glen I read last night - earlier this year while touring in Barcelona, he bought a Francisco Barba!
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to ralexander)
Hey Ralaxender I agree with pretty much all of that. I cant believe people find TE convincing. I also love Micheal Hedges and respect Don Ross.
I even saw Glen Hansard and the Frames live as 'The Swell Season' with the girl from 'Once'. My friend bought the tickets and I was pretty much dreading it. So it came as a lovely surprise when I really enjoyed the gig. That Hansard fellow can really emote !!! Do you remember him playing the guitar in the commitments ?
Here is Moreno Winterstein showing that gypsies also play steel strings.
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Don Ross is an incredible musician and multi instrumentalist. And he's an even better human being! He and his wife and touring partner Brooke Miller both play expensive handmade acoustic guitars on the road. None of their guitars are "blingy" but they are all built by master craftsmen (Beneteau, Greenfield) who have earned the right to charge big money because the guitars are consistently excellent sounding and playing instruments.
quote:
That Hansard fellow can really emote !!! Do you remember him playing the guitar in the commitments ?
Yeah, I recognized him from the Commitments as soon as I became a fan of his work with the Frames and his solo stuff. The Commitments is a great film, as is Once. I'm jealous you got to see him live with the Swell Season - he and Marketa had a great vibe. He is playing a lot with Lisa Hannigan these days, who is basically an angel Glen burns so bright when he is performing. He talks about how he "cut his teeth" performing as a busker in Dublin when he was very young. He says he worked hard to project his voice in the streets until it bounced back at him. He should go down in history as one of the most passionate and honest singers of his generation IMO. Yeah, I'm a fan LOL
Almost forgot the great Richie Havens, rest his soul! So many others come to mind ... Paul had a good suggestion with Nick Drake. I'm also a fan of guys like Jeff Tweedy from Wilco, John Martyn, Stephen Fearing etc etc Lots of great stuff to discover, you just have to be receptive to it.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: What's the deal with steel strin... (in reply to guitarbuddha)
Interesting about Tommy Emmanuel. He's one of those guys that I've heard so many positive comments about, I thought he was untouchable! But I just now checked him out for the first time.
That being said, I might just steal a few of his moves, if you don't mind...
I met this guy at a wedding I was playing for. The TV people don't stop talking until around 20 sec or something.
Printable Version
Glen burns so bright when he is performing. He talks about how he "cut his teeth" performing as a busker in Dublin when he was very young. He says he worked hard to project his voice in the streets until it bounced back at him. He should go down in history as one of the most passionate and honest singers of his generation IMO. Yeah, I'm a fan LOL 
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