RE: Examples of good English.

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Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

It had been decades since I picked up a book by Asimov.

Asimov at his best (e.g. in The Caves of Steel or The End of Eternity) was a very entertaining writer; but his prose was workable, no more.

Great stylists are thin on the ground in SF — more so than in other fields of literature, it seems to me. Cordwainer Smith was one. Others at the moment escape me, although I’m sure I’ll think of few shortly.

Then of course there’s Tolkien, who wrote some of the most beautiful English I’ve ever seen — although it apparently sets not a few people’s teeth on edge, to judge by some of the reviews.

Talking of beautiful English, you can’t beat Churchill’s History of the English-Speaking Peoples — although I’ve seen some pretty testy criticisms of its factual content (or rather, it’s choice of facts).

And for historical novels, you have Dorothy Dunnet’s Lymond series, and — the Queen (and originator) of the Regency Romance — Georgette Heyer.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 0:21:38

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to BarkellWH)

I have led (to me, at least) a fairly interesting life. Went to university; spent a few years in the U.S. Air Force in an intelligence command working overseas; after getting a master's degree entered and spent a career in the U.S. Foreign Service; and since retirement from the Foreign Service, consulting and traveling. I have been married to a Brazilian woman for 40 years, and before that I had a few girlfriends, probably none of whom have given me a second's thought since.

I mention the above because it has always been my desire to be remembered upon my death, by at least one woman, with the same intensity expressed by Lady Caroline Lamb upon the death of her lover, Lord Byron. After Lord Byron's death, Lady Caroline Lamb confided to her diary that Byron was, "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." That has always been my idea of the ideal epitaph on one's tombstone. I doubt that my Brazilian wife would think of me in those terms, and if my previous girlfriends haven't given me a second's thought in decades, I doubt that it will happen. Nevertheless, I have always thought Lady Caroline Lamb's description of Byron was pretty cool: "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know."

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 0:37:46

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

"Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." That has always been my idea of the ideal epitaph on one's tombstone.

It could apply to the Kray Twins or the Boston Strangler just as well as Byron. It seems a pretty peculiar choice of an epitaph to me (although of course, no one wants to be totally without distiction).

I kind of like H.L Mencken’s:

If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 1:22:31

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

It seems a pretty peculiar choice of an epitaph to me (although of course, no one wants to be totally without distinction).

I wrote it with tongue in cheek, Paul. Actually, I have led a very conventional love life (married to the same Brazilian woman for 40 years). No woman would ever flatter me (as Lady Caroline Lamb did Lord Byron) with the notoriety attached to being "Mad, bad, and dangerous to know." Having read a biography of Byron, I would have to say the phrase did seem to fit him.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 8:09:34

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

It had been decades since I picked up a book by Asimov.

Asimov at his best (e.g. in The Caves of Steel or The End of Eternity) was a very entertaining writer; but his prose was workable, no more.

I agree, he came up as a point of correspondance between Richard and myself. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone praising his prose. 'The End Of Eternity' is his first foray into matters of the heart is very sweet.

I used to love Sci-Fi when I was a child. But it is really hard to go back now. I can revisit Ursula Le Guin. And Philip |K. Dick,although his work is very very uneven. 'A Scanner Darkly is terrific. And 'Ubik' is full of energy.

But although I invoked Orwell's essay it does suggest a terrible austerity. I like that fact that a lot of science fiction and fantasy is almost vomited with energy onto the page. I love that energy at times. It must have been terrible for Tolkeins editors as his vomit had gold thread running through it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 8:42:54

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

And Philip |K. Dick

You will pleased to note that I have now removed the word Dick from the forum filter. Please treat it with respect, or it goes back in

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 8:47:45

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

I kind of like H.L Mencken’s:

If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

I kinda like it too Paul. Nah lets be honest, we love it.

Very Christlike, it seems a proactive inversion of this sentiment.

'And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have adone it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 8:48:32

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano

quote:

And Philip |K. Dick

You will pleased to note that I have now removed the word Dick from the forum filter. Please treat it with respect, or it goes back in

I would never whip my **** out just for effect.

Ok yeah, I would

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 8:49:57

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Escribano)

Dick is a common first name in The Netherlands....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 9:14:16

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

You will pleased to note that I have now removed the word Dick from the forum filter. Please treat it with respect, or it goes back in

Is it possible to filter it when uncapitalised and not when capitalised? As a name it should always be the latter, after all.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:04:36

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I can revisit Ursula Le Guin. And Philip |K. Dick,although his work is very very uneven. 'A Scanner Darkly is terrific. And 'Ubik' is full of energy.

Everyone praises Le Guin, and I can see the good qualities; but I find her writing turgid and humourless.

I agree about Dick, but I haven’t read Ubik, I will give it a go. Thanks.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:12:09

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I like that fact that a lot of science fiction and fantasy is almost vomited with energy onto the page.

You’ve just described Edward E. “Doc” Smith perfectly.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:16:18

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

I can revisit Ursula Le Guin. And Philip |K. Dick,although his work is very very uneven. 'A Scanner Darkly is terrific. And 'Ubik' is full of energy.

Everyone praises Le Guin, and I can see the good qualities; but I find her writing turgid and humourless.

I agree about Dick, but I haven’t read Ubik, I will give it a go. Thanks.

Mmmmm, I am starting to relent on Ubik a little, it is deeply flawed but I can get behind that. Lots of great predictions as always though.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:21:15

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Everyone praises Le Guin, and I can see the good qualities; but I find her writing turgid and humourless.

Not everyone, certainly not Margaret Atwood.

My favourite LeGuin novels are her first three Earthsea books. Childrens books really but I have such nostalgia for them that I usually get through them once every five years or so and love them. Their nostalgic mythic quality appeals to the romantic in me.

She has here depressive moments but don't we all.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:25:19

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

quote:

I like that fact that a lot of science fiction and fantasy is almost vomited with energy onto the page.

You’ve just described Edward E. “Doc” Smith perfectly.

I was thinking of L.Ron Hubbard.

Anyone know who the inspiration was for Kurt Vonneguts invention. Kilgore Trout ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 13:31:50

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

In SF, we have Ray Bradbury's The Martian Chronicles, IMO the best-written of the great 1950's SF novels, though Curt Siodmak's 1942 classic, Donovan's Brain, holds up remarkably well, as do Bester's The Demolished Man and Simak's City.

The Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian will become immortal.

Moby Dick, though, is the post-Shakespearean pinnacle of great writing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 14:13:03

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Is it possible to filter it when uncapitalised and not when capitalised? As a name it should always be the latter, after all.

'Fraid not.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 14:21:57

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to runner)

quote:

though Curt Siodmak's 1942 classic, Donovan's Brain, holds up remarkably well, as do Bester's The Demolished Man and Simak's City.

Agreed, but my favourite Bester is Tiger, Tiger (aka The Stars My Destination).

quote:

The Aubrey/Maturin series by Patrick O'Brian will become immortal.

I think it already has.

quote:

Moby Dick, though, is the post-Shakespearean pinnacle of great writing.

I can’t get past the repulsive subject matter.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 14:52:05

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

It must have been terrible for Tolkeins editors as his vomit had gold thread running through it.

Tolkien’s struggles with his editors are legendary. They wanted to change Dwarves to Dwarfs, further to farther and elven to elfin…

When challenged, they said “We used the Oxford English Dictionary’.

Tolkien replied, exaggerating just a trifle:

“I wrote the Oxford English Dictionary!”

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 15:50:15

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

Whistler: Your Majesty is like a stream of bat's piss.

Prince: What?

Whistler: It was one of Wilde's.

Oscar: It sodding was not! It was Shaw!

Prince: Well Mr. Shaw?

Shaw: I... I merely meant, Your Majesty, that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.

Prince: (accepting the compliment) Oh.

Shaw: Right. (to Prince) Your Majesty is like a dose of clap.

Prince: What?!?

Shaw: Before you arrive is pleasure, but after is a pain in the dong.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 15:58:46

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Escribano)

Like it… like it a lot.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 16:14:20

Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

You will pleased to note that I have now removed the word Dick from the forum filter. Please treat it with respect, or it goes back in

In my experience, if people are really determined to be obnoxious, you can’t stop them except by banning them completely. And that’s always seemed to me to be the best remedy.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 16:16:07

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

What about Saki (the writer, not the beverage

)

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 16:18:15

BarkellWH

Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

What about Saki (the writer, not the beverage )

Saki (actual name, H.H. Munro) wrote the classic, "The Open Window," which was a fixture in US high school English literature classes when I was in high school 52 years ago.

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 16:27:30

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

quote:

Saki (actual name, H.H. Munro) wrote the classic, "The Open Window,"

And quite a bit more ... I love his humor

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Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 31 2013 16:34:57

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

quote:

What about Saki (the writer, not the beverage )

Saki (actual name, H.H. Munro) wrote the classic, "The Open Window," which was a fixture in US high school English literature classes when I was in high school 52 years ago.

Cheers,

Bill

Radio 4 did a series of his short stories, one a day for a week a few years ago. Kind of P.G. Wodehouse like but with less overt stupidity. I've never read him but loved listening.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2013 0:07:19

runner

Posts: 357
Joined: Dec. 5 2008
From: New Jersey USA

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Paul Magnussen)

de gustibus. Regarding Bester's work, I was disappointed when I read The Stars My Destination after the tautly-plotted and -written chess game of The Demolished Man. I guess it's the old choice of Frab or Fortune at Chooka Frood's Frab Joint.

Moby Dick. After all, the White Whale Wins! "And I only am escaped alone to tell thee." If one sifts out literature, whether fiction or non-fiction, with repulsive subject matter somewhere in it, there's not too much left.... The language of Moby Dick is, in places, many places, such as to bring tears to the eyes; such Grandeur, such Power almost without precedent since Shakespeare and the King James Bible. Give it another try!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2013 0:48:37

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to runner)

On the subject of Moby Dick (which I haven't read) Cormack McCarthy's Blood Meridian has one of the most powerful scenes of graphic horror I have ever read.

The edition I bought had a huge preface which went on and on saying it was based on Moby Dick, but I just kept thinking it was 'Treasure Island'.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2013 0:53:09

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I never got very far into a Cormac McCarthy book until a friend gave me a copy of "All the Pretty Horses". He said he hadn't read it, but his wife thought I might like it. She had heard me mention a star-crossed romance during my 17th summer, which I spent traveling alone in Mexico. McCarthy's story preceded my trip by five or ten years, but it struck a strong resonance. So did the movie.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2013 1:15:49

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Examples of good English. (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

I ripped through all of McCarthy in a couple of weeks. Loved the border trilogy, especially The Crossing. Even loved Suttree.

Only ever been outside Europe in books. Did have a pretty intense fling with a Colombian girl here in Scotland. She came here to polish her halo. I think or her often.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 1 2013 1:24:54