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Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

Tabbing rules?? 
What are the rules for sheet music? Say I tab a piece Alain Faucher or someone else has notated, and then share it with other people or upload it to a website or forum, what are the repercussions etc for this?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 14:42:50
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
I have the same question but not for above situation (were tabs are shared for free) but for situations where people offer them for money. Obviously the time/knowledge one put into it can be worth it's money, but i wonder how many of the big sharers sell tabs with consent of the original composers/record companies.... for instance does Alain himself have permission from the record companies? (only know him by name, i either tab myself or use my fathers transcriptions).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 16:16:10
 
tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
Yeah I would like to know this too. As the alain faucher tabs have mention of copyright in some of the tabs, but I dont know how tabs of other peoples music can be copyrighted.

On the other hand there would be alot less tabs available if no body would get paid for making them.

I sure will share tabs with friends as I have no nerve to tell them to go buy them.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 16:21:15
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Erik van Goch) 
Yes I hoped someone would answer that through my question in a way. Also what if you purchased the sheets, then shared them after you had "retabbed" them?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 16:22:49
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
You’re talking about very different cases here: on the one hand, the publications of those who legally own the copyright, and on the other, of those who do not .

In either case copying the tab breaches the rights of the copyright-holder, who in default of having assigned them to someone else (by sale or whatever) would be the composer.

In the case of M. Faucher’s published books, he appears to have obtained the necessary copyright clearances; for instance, the first piece in his Sabicas book (El Rey del Flamenco) bears the legend:

Aires del Puerto Real By Agustin Castelllon © 1960, 1978 Cuban Music Corporation
Rights Assigned To EMI Catalogue Partnership. All Rights Controlled And Administered By Morrow Music Corp. (BMI)
All Rights Reserved. International Copyright Secured. Reproduced by permission of International Music Publications Ltd.

(Don’t ask me why it’s almost all in title case.)

On the other hand, some at least of his photocopied transcriptions seem to be in breach of the copyright, since reportedly he has received a Cease and Desist order about his Lucía stuff.

Whether you can get away with copying this stuff is of course another matter.

The case of Ramón Montoya is interesting in that it‘s now over 50 years since he died; so I believe (in some countries at least) his compositions are now in the public domain. Others will know more about that than I.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 16:28:09
 
flyhere

 

Posts: 121
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 22:18:17
 
Aretium

Posts: 277
Joined: Oct. 23 2012
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to flyhere) 
So has this forum broken copyright if someone has tabbed it and posted it on the forum?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 22:47:18
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aretium

So has this forum broken copyright if someone has tabbed it and posted it on the forum?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 23:55:50
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to FredGuitarraOle) 


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 22 2013 23:57:14
 
flyhere

 

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012
 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 0:03:50
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to flyhere) 
On a more serious note, I think this is not a big problem to worry about. If it was really a problem, I'm sure Simon wouldn't allow tabs here in the first place.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 0:15:25
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to FredGuitarraOle) 
This is a fine question to end my business day. Short answer is one cannot without license [ie permission from the copyright holder] publish [ie post here] the unauthorized transcription of a composition protected by copyright.

A solution would be to post any such transcription and/or interpretation thereof under a special section which Members only can view, invoking the exception [to copyright infringement] granted under the "fair Use Doctrine" [using the material for educational and critical purposes].

We [the Foro] may be able to invoke other exceptions, if we become [finally] a non for profit organization and/or meet the requirements press and broadcasting adhere to. These I will further research, but I will talk to Escribano in order to establish the dedicated section.

Cheers

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 1:46:29
 
flyhere

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 4:04:04
 
mark indigo

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 13:05:37
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to flyhere) 
Yes profit - or lack thereof- is irrelevant, but the non for profit organization theory I mentioned that I would research has nothing to do with the Fair Use Dictrine. This Doctrine affords a shield which we may be able to employ, but I need to research -review some case law before I detail the framework.

Naturally, i suppose that your skepticism suggests that the Use of the unauthorized transcriptions we would make here is not sufficiently restricted, as it would be in a classroom, thus preventing us from invoking said doctrine. It is legitimate concern which I too share, and will attempt to reconcile. But now that the issue has been red-flagged, this is an urgent matter, of course.

Please, share your views as they help me frame the best strategy to adopt.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 14:33:11
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

But now that the issue has been red-flagged, this is an urgent matter, of course.


Is it? If people were posting copies of music published for sale, then I’d agree. But in fact hardly any music is published (compared with what’s out there); and Flamenco functions by standing on the shoulders of previous generations — you can hear Ricardo in early Lucía, for instance.

So I consider it at least plausible that passing transcriptions around is a beneficial part of the existing culture.

If some particular guitarist objects, he can ask us to cease and desist; in which case I think we should, and not demand a court order.

But otherwise I see no harm, and a lot of benefit.

Just putting the opposite case.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 15:55:20
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Paul Magnussen) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Magnussen

Flamenco functions by standing on the shoulders of previous generations — you can hear Ricardo in early Lucía, for instance.

So I consider it at least plausible that passing transcriptions around is a beneficial part of the existing culture.


In Sabicas time many professional players were reluctant to share there material/knowledge. Manolo Sanlucar probably still kill you when you dare to play his stuff without permission (Sabicas himself on the other hand was always willing to show you a thing or two because nobody could endanger his position anyway). For Paco Peña's generation the general approach was still "if you can play it, you own it". All the great players started by learning/playing/copying material from other (great) players. Personally i don't see a moral difference between extracting that material from a record, a video, a person or tabs.

But modern times bring modern participants, like record companies that own the publishing rights (sometimes the artist himself is not even allowed to use his own record on his own website or to re-record a song with another company without permission). I believe we have to find a balance between honoring the sharing tradition (like sharing material for free on the foro for the sake of sharing information/knowledge) and honoring copyright rules when you commercially exploit other persons material (like commercially selling tabs of complete songs or selling records with copyright-sensitive material).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 16:58:06
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Paul Magnussen) 
quote:

If some particular guitarist objects, he can ask us to cease and desist; in which case I think we should, and not demand a court order.


Such a 'cease and desist' letter would have a sweeping chilling effect on our ability to share music here. As we would then be on 'Notice' elevating the degree of negligence [if the Foro were so charged] to 'gross' negligence.

I believe we should be prepared, to legitimately resist any demand that we refrain from sharing music transcriptions or interpretations, by setting up a lawful framework -if possible.

There are musicians and management companies who find it useful a marketing strategy to allow others to freely cover their music or publish transcriptions [as they advertise the original compositions and recognition of the composer's name]. Others feel the opposite and are exceedingly protective [as some here have experienced by positing on YouTube]. Finally, there are some who would 'demand' only because they can, not to serve a particular business model -liberal or protective- but solely to exercise their authority.

We need to be careful and be ready to prevent any problem which may produce a chilling effect on any of the privileges we enjoy here.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 17:26:22
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
Paco Peña told me that he doesn’t care about people sharing their own tabs of his music.

If you think it would be useful, I could ask him to state it in print — in an interview, for example. Come to that, I could ask several other people as well (not anyone that‘s dead, of course).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 17:45:07
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Paul Magnussen) 
Is Paco Pena your teacher, Paul?

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 23 2013 23:56:34
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to gj Michelob) 
quote:

Is Paco Pena your teacher, Paul?


Was, for several years in the ’60s & ’70s. Now we’re close friends. I’ve known him since 1963, when he was playing at Antonio’s in Shaftesbury Avenue, and a friend brought him to the weekend guitar club at the Coach and Horses in Ickenham.

I asked him if he’d teach me when he returned in 1967. But when I started working abroad, it kind of screwed that up. I made a point of going to his course in Córdoba through the ’80s and early ’90s, though.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 0:29:50
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Paul Magnussen) 
Brilliant. We have a few members here who share the wonderful experience of learning from Paco Pena [i know Jim Opfer did]. But it's awesome that you forged an enduring friendship with your 'such' teacher. I will PM you tomorrow about your kind proposal. Thank you Paul.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 1:00:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
GJ ~ The Delcamp classical forum has work out a set of rules governing how they handle this situation. You may want to look at the TOS and rules over there see if you can glean any information about any past case law they may have encountered.

They are somewhat tighter. But they have structured the forum to have a pedagogical section, which may support the free use educational aspect of sharing tab.

My gut feeling, calling attention to this with a searchable discussion in public is bad juju. Like asking for trouble. --- Anyway--- Put tabs into a dedicated Educational Section for members only. Obviously don't publish any complete tap that is not certifiably in public domain. Publish fragments of tabs of non public domain works as educational material.

Most publishers of pure flamenco material know the "flamenco rules" and are not going to flip out about a handful of falsetas here or there, in fact citing where the material came from gives them a bit of free advertising. I my opinion in the flamenco world only an unbalanced belligerent will get nasty about reasonable sharing because the world is small, still. If they get a reputation for coming down legally on those trying to learn guitar, sales may drop.

In the case of an individual artist who's works have been entabulated by a Foro member, publish only fragments or a certain allowable Foro length. If someone wants to share an entire tab ( and for God's sake please learn to write in notation too) let them publish a fragment. Leave it as an unsaid Foro courtesy that if someone asks the entabulator *via Private Email off the Foro system* they can work it out between them to share entire pieces.

So far nothing has happened, right? I suggest, and I'm not a legal beagle or anything, but if the Foro appears to be ( and certainly is) sympathetic and honest about putting up tabs of individual artists, simply post a disclaimer in the educational tab section. This is where the skillful composition of a notice in graceful legalese comes into play:

*The flamenco foro shares these fragments of entabulated material as educational supplemental exercises for it's members. Should any private party ask their own material shall be removed....etc. *

( I'm obviously not the maker of legal notices, but something straight forward and not burdened with jargon)

Then be proactive. Invite established artists or publishers, should they be inclined, to publish a preview of personal material they have already released in public recordings. Every once in a while someone might publish a tid bit to whet appetites for an upcoming release of an edition of notated and entabulated music. Perhaps then that company would take out a payed banner ad to go along with the tab handout??

Not that I'm a Rumpole or Melvin Belli,

BTW did you know MB named his last dog Weldon Rumproast III? Herb Caen used to mention it often with much ado. Once I saw MB jamming across the GG bridge in his famous Hum-vee. Mind you that was a real low flat badass Hummer, pre the placing of a Baudlerized Hummer body of a GM chassis.

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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 2:06:00
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
There is also the Petrucci Music Library online. You may want to investigate how it functions.

http://imslp.org/

Basically is strives to make public domain works downloadable to the public anywhere the website can be viewed. A few copyrighted works slip in here or there, but they cull them as needed.

About the library from the site:

'IMSLP stands for International Music Score Library Project. The logo is a capital letter A, taken from the very first press-printed book of polyphonic music, the Harmonice Musices Odhecaton, published in 1501. Its printer, Ottaviano Petrucci, is this library's namesake.
Copyright
This site strives to comply with Canadian copyright laws. If you believe that this site has violated Canadian copyright law, please contact us. Please also read the DMCA Policy page for invoking the copyright laws of the United States.'

______________________________________________________________


Not that anyone would ever in their most delusional dream conceive of posting whole copyrighted scores of tabulature to the Foro, right? I mean ....ahh...

http://imslp.org/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 2:29:37
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to estebanana) 
That is more or less the plan I was formulating Stephen. Flamenco is certainly a less belligerent theater when it comes to these issues, but I too feel -as I said earlier- that once the problem is red flagged we need to address it properly.

I will take your advice and review other similarly positioned sites to see how others have dealt with it.

Do yo miss the California sun? We had some spectacular weather for a few weeks now. I am moving across the Golden Gate Bridge to catch even more of it; I was pushing for a house in Sonoma [the older i get the more i find the country - not just the music- attractive] but am willing to settle for a less life changing relocation and are looking to settle in Mill Valley.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 14:07:54
 
flyhere

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 17:26:28
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
quote:

Tabbing rules??


tabbing rules ok

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 18:43:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
We talked much in the past about this. It is illegal to transcribe (write it on paper in your living room) any recorded music that is copyrighted (P) or already in sheet form (C), even if you change fingerings etc. BUT....if you see (P) the owner is OBLIGATED to grant you permission both to arrange/tab/or record your own version via mechanical rights agreements/performance rights agreements etc. That is USA. apparently, from my experience, Spain etc don't care about that and normally don't grant any permissions unless they want to. But if they did, anyway, something like FALSETAS fall perfectly under FAIR USE and could be allowed totally legally in a collection. Again, that is USA rules. Not sure how spain takes on "fair use". The reason they laugh at us anyway is we are talking about recorded music, but everybody knows full well flamenco is REALLY oral tradition based and these "laws" are totally and completely ****ing BOGUS in the context of flamenco world.

I can site one example I know personally where govts of the world attempt to sue Gypsy Kings infringers, which were authentic gipsies of the same family. The gypsy law kicks in here...the govt law fails (case thrown out as no body showed to court) patriarch of clan intervenes and life goes on as normal. So lets keep things in perspective regarding FLAMENCO please. Show respect for the art by understanding things about it and respecting teachers and traditions etc etc etc. THis is NOT the commercial pop music world where the little guy needs to be protected from the big fish. A falseta borrowed or a piece learned and interpreted is the same as the tip of a hat to the maestro, not any sort of ridiculous infringement.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 21:32:57
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Aretium) 
Until Ottmar Leibart puts out "Between two waters" and makes millions lol JK

Entre dos aguas btw........

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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 24 2013 22:03:14
 
estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tabbing rules?? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

Show respect for the art by understanding things about it and respecting teachers and traditions etc etc etc. THis is NOT the commercial pop music world where the little guy needs to be protected from the big fish. A falseta borrowed or a piece learned and interpreted is the same as the tip of a hat to the maestro, not any sort of ridiculous infringement.

Ricardo



Whoo whee! Someone has a little bee in his bonnet!

I as getting at just what you said, short of blatantly publishing a complete score that is copyrighted, fragments (or falsetas) would be fine.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 25 2013 2:37:33
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