How about this alzapua? Koto.

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estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

How about this alzapua? Koto.

and false harmonics, picado, rasgeuado, arpeggio.....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 8:34:51

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

Erai (not eray). Seriously, that was excellent. Like crossing a densely wooded mountain range in a light intermittent rain. Thanks for posting that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 9:15:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

Sakura Rocks.

I love that five note scale 12b356 (which is a minor6 add9 arpeggio) such a beautiful sound and useful in lots of musics.

I trust you are enjoying yourself ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 11:56:59

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Sakura Rocks.

I love that five note scale 12b356 (which is a minor6 add9 arpeggio) such a beautiful sound and useful in lots of musics.

Sorry to sound like an idiot but could you explain a bit more about that scale? I could just about work out it was a pentatonic mode but that's it!

I came across a album of Japanese traditional Music recorded in 1941, which is really great stuff.

Thanks for this Stephen.

PS does anyone know any other Kato players worth checking out?

Here's a video of the same person singing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 12:51:02

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to tijeretamiel)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

I love that five note scale 12b356 (which is a minor6 add9 arpeggio) such a beautiful sound and useful in lots of musics.

could you explain a bit more about that scale? I could just about work out it was a pentatonic mode but that's it!

12b356 so for an a minor chord A B C E F#.

It is a pentatonic scale in that it has five notes. But it has a semitone (between 2 and b3 -B and C in the case of A minor) so it is not an inversion of the (to guitarists) familiar minor pentatonic on which the blues scale is built on.

Use over (in the a minor case mention) D7 to give a ninth sound, A minor to give a Japanes sound or (with chromatic passing notes ) a gypsy jazz sound. Over F#half diminished or B7 to give a dominant (going to E minor) sound.

You can also look at it as the melodic minor with the fourth and seventh omited.

Interestingly if you take a major scale and omit the fourth and seventh then you get the major pentatonic.

To get a 'standard' minor pentatonic from a minor mode you omit the second and sixth. What gives this its special flavour is the semitone that it includes (2-b3). This is my first choice for minor tonic chords as the other pentatonics don't sound very minor to me.(probably cause the are inversions of the major pentatonic).

D.

For Dm- D E F A B
Em- E F# G B C#
Gm- G A Bb D E ( good for por medio that one )

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 13:21:26

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

Very cool.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 14:57:39

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

quote:

ORIGINAL: tijeretamiel

I love that five note scale 12b356 (which is a minor6 add9 arpeggio) such a beautiful sound and useful in lots of musics.

could you explain a bit more about that scale? I could just about work out it was a pentatonic mode but that's it!

12b356 so for an a minor chord A B C E F#.

It is a pentatonic scale in that it has five notes. But it has a semitone (between 2 and b3 -B and C in the case of A minor) so it is not an inversion of the (to guitarists) familiar minor pentatonic on which the blues scale is built on.

Use over (in the a minor case mention) D7 to give a ninth sound, A minor to give a Japanes sound or (with chromatic passing notes ) a gypsy jazz sound. Over F#half diminished or B7 to give a dominant (going to E minor) sound.

You can also look at it as the melodic minor with the fourth and seventh omited.

Interestingly if you take a major scale and omit the fourth and seventh then you get the major pentatonic.

To get a 'standard' minor pentatonic from a minor mode you omit the second and sixth. What gives this its special flavour is the semitone that it includes (2-b3). This is my first choice for minor tonic chords as the other pentatonics don't sound very minor to me.(probably cause the are inversions of the major pentatonic).

D.

For Dm- D E F A B
Em- E F# G B C#
Gm- G A Bb D E ( good for por medio that one )

You are correct in general but specific about THIS girl up top vid, totally wrong. It's actually in g minor, but if it WERE in A minor, it would be F NATURAL not, F#. Totally different color. I discovered this scale (rock guitar kid years) as the diatonic harmony THIRDS BELOW the normal rock guitar minor pentatonic...and such a shape is wicked to play on guitar. I use it in flamenco all the time to evoke the lydian flavor in phyrgian on the II chord. Play an Ebmaj7 (or Eb/D) chord over her playing to see what I mean, imagine to resolve at some point on D major. Or better yet, tune to Rondeña and noodle around with that capo 1. perfect match, especially tremolo section.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 16:44:34

tijeretamiel

Posts: 441
Joined: Jan. 6 2012

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

12b356 so for an a minor chord A B C E F#.

It is a pentatonic scale in that it has five notes. But it has a semitone (between 2 and b3 -B and C in the case of A minor) so it is not an inversion of the (to guitarists) familiar minor pentatonic on which the blues scale is built on.

Use over (in the a minor case mention) D7 to give a ninth sound, A minor to give a Japanes sound or (with chromatic passing notes ) a gypsy jazz sound. Over F#half diminished or B7 to give a dominant (going to E minor) sound.

You can also look at it as the melodic minor with the fourth and seventh omited.

Interestingly if you take a major scale and omit the fourth and seventh then you get the major pentatonic.

To get a 'standard' minor pentatonic from a minor mode you omit the second and sixth. What gives this its special flavour is the semitone that it includes (2-b3). This is my first choice for minor tonic chords as the other pentatonics don't sound very minor to me.(probably cause the are inversions of the major pentatonic).

D.

For Dm- D E F A B
Em- E F# G B C#
Gm- G A Bb D E ( good for por medio that one )

Thanks for that.

After reading Ricardo's reply too. I'm pretty damn confused.

It signals one thing though, it's about time that I learnt some theory....

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 17:51:01

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

You are correct in general but specific about THIS girl up top vid, totally wrong. It's actually in g minor, but if it WERE in A minor, it would be F NATURAL not, F#. Totally different color. I discovered this scale (rock guitar kid years) as the diatonic harmony THIRDS BELOW the normal rock guitar minor pentatonic...and such a shape is wicked to play on guitar. I use it in flamenco all the time to evoke the lydian flavor in phyrgian on the II chord. Play an Ebmaj7 (or Eb/D) chord over her playing to see what I mean, imagine to resolve at some point on D major. Or better yet, tune to Rondeña and noodle around with that capo 1. perfect match, especially tremolo section.

I never said the piece was in A. I was trying to illustrate what scale I was talking about to TJ, I was clarifying the spelling and I chose the key of A arbitrarily.

The scale I talked about was indeed the one I like heard and tried to explain. What I said about it was what I meant to say. I mentioned some to the harmonic backgrounds which would change the way it sounded and functioned.

The scale that you are describing which I think is (in A- A B C E F transposed to G - G A Bb D Eb) sounds to my ears like either Fmaj7aug11 or Eb maj7aug 11 respectively.

Your correction would be appropriate if the only bass note sounding in the piece was Eb but it isn't. As I mentioned in my original post the way this scale will sound and function changes with harmonic context.

You are right that choosing to see the context in the light of a static major one in third inversion will give it the sound you want to talk about. But that is not what happens in the piece and also not what I was talking about.

The one you are talking about sounds good over the IV chord in standards.. It is an interesting tonic sound in a fusion modal piece as you describe it.

I stand by my initial post.

Thanks for your input.

D

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 19:13:42

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I stand by my initial post.

Well, then you imply the scale you think you hear is G A Bb D E...but she IS playing G A Bb D Eb (1 2 b3 5 b6).

For sure you know your stuff, I thought you just made a typo at first.

Also you are correct my suggestion of playing along with her playing Ebmaj7 (aug11 as you say is correct) is just my personal use of this "pentatonic" scale. I initially stated she is infact playing in G minor. (I know you used A minor just as an example to show how to use the scale you thought you heard).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 19:58:22

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to Ricardo)

So there is only one chord in this set of variations fascinating ?

Why not pick something else which isn't true and I haven't said and accuse me of that too ?

I am a sloppy guy, why not wait for an actual mistake ? There will be one along soon, stay vigilant.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 20:06:25

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

So there is only one chord in this set of variations fascinating ?

Why not pick something else which isn't true and I haven't said and accuse me of that too ?

I am a sloppy guy, why not wait for an actual mistake ? There will be one along soon, stay vigilant.

D.

Sorry I edited mine above yours while you were typing. I never said anything about her chords. If she is using E naturals
please point em out cuz I missed em. I hear Ebs all over.

To be clear the only thing in debate here is the stupid E note if it is natural or flat. So don't get all bent out of shape.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 20:10:29

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

All the same tones al cinco por medio (D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D) so it'd be truly Phrygian, without flamenco's resolution to the major third degree (F#), ¿no?

Note: edited 8 May 2013 to add "por" (medio)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 21:15:03

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

All the same tones al cinco medio (D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb-C-D) so it'd be truly Phrygian, without flamenco's resolution to the major third degree (F#), ¿no?

If you want to relate it to flamenco (as I suggested above) sure. The variable F-F# is avoided by her so, that important thing would HAVE TO be taken on by the guitar. If F natural only were heard, her "song" sounds like G aeolian (not flamenco sounding so much). THe other missing note C is also important. Again C or C# used as variable gives lot of resolving color. (For Example Eb7#11 via the C# aka Db, pulls to or emphasize the D tonic. Both C and C# avoidance down plays the idea of D as tonic).

But as her music stands on it's own, the deliberate avoidance of those (normally) variable notes is significant to the "aire" or mood she is creating, and it is meant to be heard "in G minor" I feel, not D phyrgian.

Incidentally, if the E natural (Guitarbuddha thinks he is hearing) WERE heard in this piece, it would jump out the same as the raised 2nd in Cante (like your study) implying (as per flamenco traditions) the A7 "cambio" chord. I didn't notice any E naturals.
Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 22:50:13

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to Ricardo)

I really must apologise.

I literally got up out of the wrong side of bed yesterday (pulled a muscle in my neck) and have been somewhat abbrasive and grumpy all day.

I did not check my assumptions on my instrument even when I got into the argument and only really listened properly just now.

I had been assuming that at some point a C bass would be sounded and that would justify my position but it didn't happen.

Apologies to Tijeretamiel for the confusion and Ricardo for the grumpiness and for generally being a pillock.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 7 2013 23:51:58

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to Ricardo)

You did say that above (rondeña with capo at first fret)...

quote:

THe other missing note C...

...but the C is there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 0:36:09

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

There are also some flamenco sounding shamisen players....

I'm still trying to catch up with the scale analysis.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 1:03:58

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I really must apologise.

no worries man, a minor mistake it's no biggie really.

quote:

...but the C is there.

Not ever ONCE in her playing. Or i missed it, if you hear one point us to the time on the top video, but I am pretty sure she avoids it.

quote:

I'm still trying to catch up with the scale analysis.

Everybody knows A minor pentatonic no? it's same as C major pentatonic:

E------------------------------5-8--
B------------------------5-8--------
G------------------5-7---------------
D------------5-7---------------------
A-------5-7--------------------------
E-5-8--------------------------------

harmony in diatonic 3rds BELOW

E------------------------------1-5--
B------------------------1-5--------
G------------------2-4--------------
D------------2-3--------------------
A------2-3---------------------------
E-1-5--------------------------------

THat's the scale she is using.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 3:17:52

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

I really must apologise.

What a rare gentlemanly phrase, we all should learn and get in Compas.
Bravo, GB

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 3:21:50

NormanKliman

Posts: 1143
Joined: Sep. 1 2007

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

if you hear one point us to the time on the top video,

There's one example at about 1:37. After the slow part from 1:23-1:30, it's in the second melodic ascent.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 7:26:38

Ricardo

Posts: 15154
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to NormanKliman)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

if you hear one point us to the time on the top video,

There's one example at about 1:37. After the slow part from 1:23-1:30, it's in the second melodic ascent.

Missed it. Then it is not pentatonic, unless it's an accident. THe note just reinforces the G Aeolian sound of the piece, though it is normally avoided elsewhere. Would be interesting to learn about the do's and don'ts of this type of music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 8 2013 18:04:24

estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Would be interesting to learn about the do's and don'ts of this type of music.

Eventually I'll meet traditional musicians and I'll ask questions and report. There are some world class shamisen players in the area here and I have an invitation to a private listening in the near future.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 6:10:59

machopicasso

Posts: 990
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: How about this alzapua? Koto. (in reply to estebanana)

That was really cool. Thanks for posting it. Some may think it's too off-topic for a flamenco foro. But, after reading through the comments (esp. those oriented toward music theory), I think comparative points of reference, such as this, can be really informative.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 9 2013 9:26:08