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Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

Felipe Conde 

Now that the labels read Felipe Conde, I am curious if there is any change to the newer Condes being built. (Not that I can afford a new one).

Has anyone tried a post 2010 Conde? How do they compare in quality to the ones from the 90's which I have read on this foro are better.

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"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 12:27:34
 
TANúñez

Posts: 2547
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

I haven't played one but I would expect them to be the same. Just new label.

_____________________________

Tom Núñez
www.instagram.com/tanunezguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 13:17:15

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

They're most likely still being made in the same factory.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 13:40:07
 
gemelo

Posts: 75
Joined: Aug. 23 2008
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

I visited Mariano Conde workshop in Madrid two years ago and all the guitars, even the student ones were built in there. I wanted to see Felipe but the store was closed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 13:59:52

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

I find that hard to believe. There are just too many of them out there, the top models included, for them to have been made in those small workshops. Even the larger Madrid workshops like Ramirez don't build their student models in their own shop. They're all outsourced.
First impressions and outward appearances of guitar shops in Spain can be very deceiving. There's a lot of smoke and mirrors in the Spanish guitar business.
Many "luthiers" these days are little more than label lickers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 14:05:52
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

Well, the whole who builds these guitars thing I think has been done to death here, and it is still a valid issue of course, but I was wondering how the guitars that are being built now hold up versus the ones built during the 90's. Several members whose opinions I respect have reported that Condes post 2001 or so are just not the same, and I was wondering why and if this situation has changed since 2010 which is when Felipe Conde labels started appearing no?

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 14:21:57
 
Don Dionisio

 

Posts: 360
Joined: Feb. 16 2011
From: Durham, NC

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

I played a 2004 Conde Hermanos Domingo Esteso Reedición and it was
by far the best guitar I have ever played. Of course, it carried a high
price tag, but if I had the money, I would have bought it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 14:30:35

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

No matter who made it or when it was made, it's the individual instrument in question and how it suits a particular player that matters.
Even from the same maker, factory or wherever, they aren't all the same by any stretch of the imagination. Generalities don't necessarily apply.
A great guitar to one player may be a total dog to another.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 14:52:32
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

WARNING !!! Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

WARNING:

Forgive my austere tone, but I am sure you all appreciate that there is a dangerously fine line between Opinions and Statements of Fact, when speaking of Products.

While you may freely express your Opinion, a Statement of Fact may amount to 'Libel' [a written, published defamatory statement that cannot be defended with evidence of its truth].

If you say, 'I do not like the sound of Conde guitars' you are expressing an opinion;
If you say, 'I think Conde are made in a Factory' you are slandering Conde with a defamatory, Libelous statement that is False, unless you can prove otherwise.

In my role as legal counsel to ForoFalmenco, I ask that you refrain from publishing harmful allegations unless you can support them with clear evidence. Please add the words 'There are rumors or allegations that' or delete any post where you have made such allegations.

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 15:50:21

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

I seriously doubt that saying "most likely" or "I think" would be considered libel.
Either way, they're welcome to sue me if they so choose and then it'll be up to them to prove where their guitars are actually made and that could prove embarrassing to a lot of people..

BTW, mich, why did you dump those two high-priced Condes you owned?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 15:54:42
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

Charles, the problem is not whether they sue you, but whether -based on your posts- Conde or and distributor of Conde [as interested party] can cause problems to the Foro. We had our share, and would rather avoid te unpleasantry.

You, in particular, have published articles on guitars on one or more magazine; your 'word' has more weight than mine or that of most members here, does.

On behalf of ForoFlamenco I
1. Dissociate from and disagree with your statements about Conde; and
2. Formally request that you assume sole individual responsibility for your statements.

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:07:21
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1893
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

Well, they can sue me too: after seeing a whole shelf of media luna mastiles in the taller of Sanchez in Valencia, I should like some clarification too. Something which the various Condes do not appear to want.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:10:32

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

You "formally request"??? I'd like that in writing on your letterhead, please.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:10:34
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

Charles, I have been back on this foro for a week, and all I have seen you do is solely make inflammatory and offensive statements. You may proudly defend your untenable position, but really, you should reevaluate why you post here in the first place.

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gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:26:07
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Morante

quote:

Well, they can sue me too: after seeing a whole shelf of media luna mastiles in the taller of Sanchez in Valencia, I should like some clarification too. Something which the various Condes do not appear to want.


Morante, you hit the nail on the head. Raising a legitimate doubt about any product is both your right and [even] your duty. But to answer that doubt... ah... there lays treacherously the problem, doesn't it?

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:30:21

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

Hey guys, didja catch that??? My man mich sez I have an untenable position. He's a lawyer. He probably uses words like that all the time.

(Note that I did say "probably". )
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 16:57:35
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to gj Michelob

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 17:01:22
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry



I am sorry guys, I think this is getting too intense here. I just wanted to know if anyone has played a post 2010 Conde! I am not a habitual contributor here, and this foro is the only place I can get answers to such questions. I know there is something about Conde that really sets things ablaze here. I apologize for opening this can o' worms.

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 17:26:26
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

Just as we thought everything about Conde has been said...... and said again.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 17:46:24
 
Escribano

Posts: 6311
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

GJ is just clarifying a better use of language when writing on a public forum. Apologies of it comes across as a little blunt, but we have had our fair share of legal threats behind the scenes.

As the owner of the forum, I am the primary target of such.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 18:05:58
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Guest

Nealf, I am really sorry to read your reaction. I hope it is due to a misunderstanding, and before you finalize your decision, please let me offer a couple of clarifications:

1. I repeat, feel absolutely free to express your opinion, unconditionally.
The only caveat is not just a rule of law, but also one of civility, if one decides to publicly criticize another as a 'liar' [as in suggesting that Conde falsifies the true source of his guitars] then that critic must do so cautiously and conscientiously, because such criticism can and will harm the reputation and business of the criticized person. Only in this instance i warn that a statement is dangerous and should only be made upon clear evidence. And 'clear evidence' means exactly what it means... don't falsely accuse others of wrongful business practices unless you can prove it.

2. A few years ago, the Foro Administration struggled with a few and vicious complaints about similar posts made on the Foro. After i helped defuse the anger of the claimants [and always did so pro bono] we created the 'product review' section -which you now find in the Lobby. This was made necessary to isolate responsibility and insulate the foro from liability in connection with exactly what i now warn about.

I do not think it is difficult. Offending others gratuitously is wrong, but is not prohibited. But to liberally issue false accusation against another is unlawful and exposes the Foro to liability. I cannot believe anyone wouldn't agree with this simple point.

If the way I phrased my 'warning' was excessive I apologize, I tend to be a bit too direct when it comes to legal matters, but I hope that you know me better than to pass judgment so quickly.

Please do not leave the Foro on my account. Again, if i sounded too direct or full of myself, I failed in what was a zealous defense of the Foro, because by losing you i am hurting the foro.

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 18:10:43
 
Arash

Posts: 4462
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

Guys, even the Sanchis Lopez brothers have 2 or 3 people who help them making the guitars. Its simply impossible for one or two people to make those numbers. As long as the guitar is good and built to the specifications, i personally don't care. Its a natural process. The more successful you get and the more guitars are ordered, you need more help and can't do everything alone. Unless you do the "10 years waiting list" thing and sell your guitars for 10.000

Also as mentioned, guitars (even the exact same model with exact same specifications) are different.

I played 10! Sanchis Guitars in one day and to me each one was slightly different. All good but a little different. Even those which were exactly the same model (for instance 2F Cypress, etc.). We are talking about guitars, not Laptops.

Back to question: I tried 2013 Felipe Conde Guitars (two FC 26s and 2 Negras) just a few weeks ago and they were amazing guitars too, with great pulsation, easy to play and good sound. One of the FC26s standed out (IMO!) and i played that a little longer. But i personally wouldn't pay those prices for a new Felipe Conde (or Mariano Conde) guitar but buy a good used one instead. But thats just me. I find the prices to be too high.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 18:19:49
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

quote:

Back to question: I tried 2013 Felipe Conde Guitars (two FC 26s and 2 Negras) just a few weeks ago and they were amazing guitars too, with great pulsation, easy to play and good sound. One of the FC26s standed out (IMO!) and i played that a little longer. But i personally wouldn't pay those prices for a new Felipe Conde (or Mariano Conde) guitar but buy a good used one instead. But thats just me. I find the prices to be too high.


Thanks for this. I agree that those prices are very high and this is why I suppose I am trying to justify buying a used Conde pre 2001 to myself

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 19:10:39
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

quote:

I visited Mariano Conde workshop in Madrid two years ago and all the guitars, even the student ones were built in there. I wanted to see Felipe but the store was closed.


I notice that the labels on the Mariano Conde guitars have a very artisanal look. Again, not that I want to suggest that they are artisanal, or not.

_____________________________

"I'm just a poor crazy man in love with his art." Santos Hernandez
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 21:12:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harry

quote:

Back to question: I tried 2013 Felipe Conde Guitars (two FC 26s and 2 Negras) just a few weeks ago and they were amazing guitars too, with great pulsation, easy to play and good sound. One of the FC26s standed out (IMO!) and i played that a little longer. But i personally wouldn't pay those prices for a new Felipe Conde (or Mariano Conde) guitar but buy a good used one instead. But thats just me. I find the prices to be too high.


Thanks for this. I agree that those prices are very high and this is why I suppose I am trying to justify buying a used Conde pre 2001 to myself



Jury still out here, I am fixing to try one though soon. On Facebook they document his son building a negra so it MUST BE LEGIT!!!!

I put forth now that despite the accusations, ALL A MODEL Condes are built by hand by one of the two brothers. All media lunas produced in valencia are destined for one of the other two shops either Atocha, or Gravina (and since before the split) the student B models for the Felipe V address. that is STILL a lot of condes of course, but now please prove me wrong somebody. Show me a Felipe V addressed A model media luna that was surely constructed in Valencia. Waiting.


ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 21:51:23

C. Vega

 

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

Or one that was surely constructed in its entirety by one or both of the brothers in Madrid. Waiting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 4 2013 22:12:51
 
orsonw

Posts: 1508
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to C. Vega

I have played Felipe Conde media lunas, a 2011 negra, 2011 blanca and a 2012 negra.

To me these three were similar to some late 90s and 2000s Felipe V Condes I've played.

Having said that, in my experience I've found it best to play and judge a guitar as a guitar, not by date, shop address or price tag.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2013 10:18:32
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to gj Michelob

quote:

But to liberally issue false accusation against another is unlawful and exposes the Foro to liability. I cannot believe anyone wouldn't agree with this simple point.


Sorry, but I don't see this as an obvious, much less "simple", point. I grant the first part (i.e. that 'liberally issuing false accusations against another is unlawful'). I also support it in the hope that the Foro will be a reliable source of accurate information.

But I don't understand why the second point is true (i.e. why it is that a member who liberally issues false accusations "exposes the Foro to liability").

There are plenty of controversial websites where members 'liberally issue false accusations'. But those websites aren't bullied into policing what their members write. So, why is it different with the Foro? And why can't the offending member be the target of legal action, as opposed to the Foro?

For what it's worth, I appreciate your pro bono contributions on behalf of the site. I also respect the administrator's concern about possible legal action in light of "vicious complaints." Perhaps if you could answer the questions above, some (further?) misunderstandings might be avoided.

Thanks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2013 10:39:10
 
el carbonero

 

Posts: 295
Joined: Jun. 23 2007
 

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to Harry

but anyone had tried a felipe conde and a mariano conde in the same place to compare??

i know a guy who tried the two and tell me it's better the mariano,but the accoustic of shop of mariano and felipe is different so hard to compare.,personnaly i dont have opinion if i dont try.
.
The mariano are more expensive,i dont know why...

One thing i am sure ,my conde felipeV 1991 ,is the best guitar i played.
and never mind if it's a chinese child who made it,this guitar is perfect for me.

I have a question,in the conde felipe V 1A ,there are 2 differents signature in the label,it's easy to see the mariano's signature and the felipe's signature.

for example my conde are the mariano signature,would that mean this guitar is build by mariano???
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2013 11:01:25
 
gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Felipe Conde (in reply to machopicasso

quote:

sorry, but I don't see this as an obvious, much less "simple", point.


You are absolutely correct, there is nothing simple about applying the law to specific circumstances, and particularly so in what is a rather novel area of the law [the internet] which encompasses more than one jurisdiction [meaning the blog is published and read in the UK but also the US, and in nearly every country in the world].

Here is a good article that should answer some of our concerns:
https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation

Let me just add a few footnotes.

We all love this Foro.

Whenever someone attacks it with cease and desist letters and threatens to sue, in the US or say in Spain, I do not simply reply as I would to a post here, but must first research the particular issue, law and case law [court’s decisions] and often refer to more experienced colleagues [on internet law]. If the threat is from abroad, I consult with colleagues in that jurisdiction –which sometimes I [had to] pay for their counsel.

If the claim becomes an ‘action’ in Court, as romantic a view one may have of fighting it before Judge and jury, the costs of legal proceedings are ‘astronomical’ in the US.

Fortunately, thus far we succeeded in avoiding any litigation, but –as you can imagine -the administration becomes disheartened and frustrated, while a desire to shut down the operation weighs heavily among the strategic options to sort out the problem.

By the same token, a few members of this Foro, who had a cavalier attitude toward the subject, called me in tears when the threat of litigation knocked on their doors. Also then, and pro bono, I intervened successfully.

Hence, my criticized stern warnings.

Let me offer a simple example:
Say that Ricardo [and he knows I adore him so he will pass me the use his name for my example] posts that:
1. I can’t play guitar and should try the French Horn;
2. My compositions are painful to the human ear, and he can’t imagine what they may do to the more sophisticated canine auditory senses;
3. My ‘Solea’ is neither so, nor is it Flamenco by any stretch of merciful imagination;
4. I plagiarized the song by copying slavishly his ‘Plaza del Cabildo’ [I just purchased the score from him].


1 and 2 are opinions. And as such –in the US- are protected speech. But God only knows what the laws are in other jurisdictions.
Is 3. an opinion or a statement of fact and can it be harmful or offensive? Depends on a variety of factors and there is no precise answer.
All three are true, incidentally, but proving it in court is still a journey.

Number 4 [Plagiarism] is it, this is defamation, which Ricardo could defend only by proving that his accusation is true, that my song really steals his.

My simple view or rule of thumb is this:
By all means say whatever you like, in the US at least where people are more litigious, we enjoy freedom of speech. The last thing I want is to inhibit free speech on a forum.

However, just be considerate and careful. If you choose to accuse someone of a wrongful act or practice [plagiarism, counterfeiting, any criminal activity, fraud –consumer fraud as to country of origin or source] then you should think twice, and do not venture there, unless you can document the truthfulness of the statement [i.e.: provide court documents or published articles exposing the truth, or the findings of you own research]. Remember even newspapers are liable for defamation, not just the writer but the editor and the ownership as well.

The ISP's liability for hosting a defamatory statement is still debated. Certainly, it is more dangerous when the host is negligent [does not care] or grossly negligent [it receives notice and still does not care]. But the ISP has the right to delete any post. The debate goes to eBay, are they liable for the counterfeit products sold through their site -and from which sales they profit? Good query. In France they are but in the US solely if the offended party has formally complained.

I refer to my point above, who wants to defend a lawsuit anyway? A prudent ISP will avoid the problem altogether by exercising a measure of caution. I appreciate this isn't a pleasant subject, no one enjoys being told what to think or say...

... What Tacitus 'posted' a few centuries ago remains unchanged after all:
Rara Temporum Felicitas Ubi Sentire Quae Velis et Quae Sentias Dicere Licet.

_____________________________

gj Michelob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 5 2013 15:29:51
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