Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Problem?   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: <<   <   1 [2]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: turnermoran

Would you guys say that on a true flamenco guitar, if you were to pull the saddle out, and put the strings at a small amount of tension, and the action @12 were still 2mm, that there is an issue somewhere?

Or could that be considered within the allowable range of possibility?

I would think that if the neck angle were correct and the bridge set up correctly, if you pulled the saddle out, the action would be 1mm or less in a perfect world.

Thx


You have a psychological problem with the 'perfect guitar". I do too it's ok. A fear that one day the fresh pine top will cave and the neck warp etc. Teeter tottering the edge of a great instrument and un repairable fire wood. GET OVER IT. If you take care of her she will stay "perfect" forever. You have to play it. My guitars always get upset when neglected and after couple days of hard playing back to perfect again.

About the action arguments. Luthiers vs players again. I have seen insane guitars where you can't fit a cigarette under the bridge without destroying the paper. That low. zero break angles, insane low action. If I play the thing yes it sounds like a banjo, but when the owner plays it its clear. Its all in the touch and what you get used to. I can make a 4+ mm buzz if i want or a 1.5mm sound clear with effort. But in the end it's what makes you most comfy. Perhaps there are measuring issues with the 2mm conde, perhaps the bone is slanted toward bass side so across board clean sound. Nobody ever measure each string and they all different. I just notice hauser slant the tie block and the bone may or may not follow this. so many variables. Brune told me he was amazed about one guitar deliberately fretted in a way that the same minimal buzz occurs at ALL locations on the fingerboard. He felt a deliberate design detail painstankingly accomplished and he discovered it thinking it needed repair and almost messed it up. Higher frets for example change the action and buzz...and sound???? Maybe there ARE magic guitars in some respects. It is not fair to tell players they SHOULD be playing in a certain way and that changes everything, or say that they are crazy when you don't know how they play.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 16:25:48
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to KMMI77) 
quote:

It is 2mm from the top of the fret to the underside of the string at the 12th fret, and the underside of the string is roughly 7.8/7.9mm above the sound board immediately in front the bridge. roughly 1.3 mm of bone showing above the bridge. Like it or not, that's just how it is.


I´m glad this guitar suits you very well, because for the huge majority it will have a bridge setup which will be way to high. I´ll explain:
A setup useable for the huge majority is 3mm (and sometimes higher). So in order to make your guitar have a 3mm setup, the saddle bone will need to be 2mm higher. This means 7,8/7,9mm + 2mm = just under 10mm stringheight at the bridge (or more for some players). And this will by the majority be considered to be to high.
So keep the guitar. I totally believe it suits you and your playing style and I also believe that it´ll be very difficult if not impossible to find another you might like as much or more.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 27 2013 22:02:11
 
HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to Ricardo) 
I remember once michaelgg also mentioned that either his conde or his german v (forgot the last name of the luthier, lopez?) guitar has a 2 mm action with minimal buzz.

I see no reason to doubt kris's words..
Maybe once day I can go to brisbane and check it out too. he has some nice guitars i think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2013 0:11:14
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to Ricardo) 
A problem is that we, the builders have to build guitars for the 95% (or more) who needs a 2,8 - 3mm (or more) setup.
This means that the VERY few ones who play with extra high tension, and therefor can adjust their guitars to have a lower than normal stringheight over the frets, have to accept that the stringheight at the bridge will be very low and that the saddle bone will be very thin and that you might have to accept that the breakangle is very low as well.
If we made guitars to have a 2mm setup and 8mm stringheight at the bridge, then we would exclude 90 - 95% (or more) of our clients.

There are simply said some physical rules when it comes to stringed instruments. They can be tweaked by using very high tension strings and a thick and very stiff top. But almost noone will accept to play an instrument like that.
And IMHO opinion, these instruments might sound good for some things, but its not a flamenco sound. Stiff top and extra high tension means ´twang´and sustain. Not exactly what the flamenco sound is considered to be. (earthy and percussive)

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2013 8:59:49
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to Ricardo) 
Good points, Ricardo.

Something else that I thought about after I posted a reply is that everything changes under string tension at correct pitch: There is downward pressure on the bridge and torquing of the bridge and bowing (some, at least ever so slight) of the neck. And when the ambient humidity changes that can cause significant changes in the action.

I have found that a low saddle makes the guitar feel easier to play for both hands, everything else held constant, and I am making bridges with the top of the ramp shaped so that a decent breakover angle can still be achieved, with a deep valley and string holes at the bottom of it.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2013 13:26:43
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: saddle out, 2mm action @ 12. Pro... (in reply to KMMI77) 
To a luthier, "set up" refers to what is done to the saddle and nut after the guitar is built. The neck angle and doming of the top are obviously not adjustable once the guitar is built and are not part of the set up; getting those consistently just right is a tricky business not suited to mass production. That's why we have hand builders!

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 28 2013 13:40:03
Page:   <<   <   1 [2]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: <<   <   1 [2]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.0625 secs.