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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to gj Michelob)
I think the rules are 'the only rule is there are no rules' depending, on whether you are established, or if you are not, as a 'true" flamenco player. If you have a name, and come from a family with history you may call it whatever you like. If you are a student, then you may only play strictly specific stuff.
This pecking order works on the foro as well, depending on how good a player you are.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to gj Michelob)
You should read Estela´s book "Flamencos de Gañanía", where she presents an important account of how the gitanos de Santiago went as a body to work in the cortijos. To understand flamenco you have to understand the social conditions of the flamencos: songs such as temporera o trilla (as sung by Fernando de la Morena, who went to the Gañanía as a child) are work songs from the campo, aflamenados. It does not surprise me that a gitano de Santiago should compose a fantasía and call it gañanía, a palo which does not exist.
Since the gitanos of Santiago y San Miguel presently are the most important in the preservation of the cante, it is worth knowing their history.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to n85ae)
Trying to compose a thing for the solea challenge has been fun and nervewrecking. More often than not I find myself trying to fit things together and getting a grasp on what makes a solea a solea.
Its easy to identify it when listening but when you're being adventurous on your composition you might end up with a big mess that isnt a solea anymore.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to Morante)
quote:
To understand flamenco you have to understand the social conditions of the flamencos: songs such as temporera o trilla (as sung by Fernando de la Morena, who went to the Gañanía as a child) are work songs from the campo, aflamenados.
Yes I noticed that, escuchando how la Pirinaca or Maria Bala talked about these moments in their itv, it might be something very important in the flamnco way of life (for the older generation imo, coz this might have disappear or strongly reduced. Like that statement : 'you have to experienced hunger to feel THE' blablabla...)
quote:
It does not surprise me that a gitano de Santiago should compose a fantasía and call it gañanía, a palo which does not exist.
Sorry, but I'm not sure to understand you quiet well. It's ok for me if you want to label Diego's work as a 'fantasy'. Howevever, it not seems to me that himself thought of his work that way. That's why he label it Solea. Now maybe I'm missing something here coz I don't meet all the criterias you defined to be able to understand what's flamenco is about....still I'm continue to fill my excell sheet So if you could develop yours arguments, I might learn something...
[Personnaly, I firmly believe that if you experienced a materialist way of life, you will hardly get what flamenco is about. That's obviously a personnal feeling, but i'm conviced of it! ]
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to tele)
quote:
ORIGINAL: tele
E dominant phrygian and A dominant phrygian
Often though in flamenco guitarists use notes outside the basic scale, for example using both dominant phrygian and phrygian but thats only one note difference, some others are also used.
It's ok to think that way so long as you understand in flamenco, certain songs such as solea siguiriya etc that use E or A phrygian dominant, are not DOMINANT FUNCTIONING, instead that same modal sound is TONIC. A very important distinction that most music theory nerds dont' understand until they study flamenco closely.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Although the key he plays in is essentially the same as Rondeña, the form is SOLEA that he plays. We have discussed till blue in the face on the foro what complex details differentiate the labels SOLEA....SOLEA POR BULERIA and BULERIA POR SOLEA.
They are at times interchangeable depending on context. If you must wonder WHY did he label his solo piece SOLEA and not buleria por solea or solea por buleria, it is because he was thinking of doing THIS with his fasletas:
THIS s SOLEA, not buleria por solea that she is SINGING, despite the fact the movie makers labeled it solea POR BULERIAS. IF she had sung instead buleria por solea (buleria larga or corta) or solea de jerez (frijones etc) they could have labeled differently. For diego it doesnt matter the playing is the same. Hope that makes sense.
As it comes to solea vs solea por bulerias i have more questions then answers myself. I tend to believe solea por bulerias has a different rhythmic swing than Solea(res) and both this video and Diego's solo to me sound more like solea por bulerias.
Paco Peña (who is very strict in labeling) produced many different soleares recordings in the 70/80ties and they were al labeled soleares. The only solea por bulerias he recorded was called solea, which i always considered to be short for solea (por bulerias). Not sure he did the labeling of that piece himself or trusted it to others.
I don't know when soleares became solea (or if both were used from the very start) but it is very well possible that solea means different things to different persons and/or in different periods of time, like solea(res) vs solea (por bulerias). Some dance videos of plain soleares are old fashionedly labeled "solea por bulerias" for no other reason then that fact the soleares ends with a standard bulerias finale (por bulerias).
When my father came in contact with flamenco for the first time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E. Alegrias was played in A and every single time he encountered an alegrias (?) in E it was called "por rosa" (and never ever alegrias...in the same way a seguiriyas in E is often called serranas, although they are slightly different). Not sure if an alegrias in E was structurally called por rosa or that "por rosa" was a specific song, but that didn't change the fact that in that period of time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E (other then the ones called por rosa).
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to mezzo)
quote:
Sorry, but I'm not sure to understand you quiet well. It's ok for me if you want to label Diego's work as a 'fantasy'. Howevever, it not seems to me that himself thought of his work that way. That's why he label it Solea.
I understood from GJ´s post that the work was labelled Gañania (soleá). This implies "por soleá".
Diego is a fine soloist, though as an accompanist he pales before the great figure of his father. If a gitano de Jerez wants to compose a solo, it will almost certainly be a compás (bulería, soleá, soleá por bulería). So to be different he plays in the menor. Then he decides to call his composition "Gañanía" in homage to the hardships suffered by the abuelos. No other explanation needed
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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
I don't know when soleares became solea
Erik, I think Soleares and Soleá are the same thing but I'm not sure. The difference is that the word soleares is the plural of soleá. You can say you will play por Soleares/Soleá, just like you can play por Bulerías/Bulería. Again, I'm not 100% sure of this.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to FredGuitarraOle)
quote:
ORIGINAL: FredGuitarraOle
quote:
I don't know when soleares became solea
Erik, I think Soleares and Soleá are the same thing but I'm not sure. The difference is that the word soleares is the plural of soleá. You can say you will play por Soleares/Soleá, just like you can play por Bulerías/Bulería. Again, I'm not 100% sure of this.
Short version of soleares, but the question was about time
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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Although the key he plays in is essentially the same as Rondeña, the form is SOLEA that he plays. We have discussed till blue in the face on the foro what complex details differentiate the labels SOLEA....SOLEA POR BULERIA and BULERIA POR SOLEA.
They are at times interchangeable depending on context. If you must wonder WHY did he label his solo piece SOLEA and not buleria por solea or solea por buleria, it is because he was thinking of doing THIS with his fasletas:
THIS s SOLEA, not buleria por solea that she is SINGING, despite the fact the movie makers labeled it solea POR BULERIAS. IF she had sung instead buleria por solea (buleria larga or corta) or solea de jerez (frijones etc) they could have labeled differently. For diego it doesnt matter the playing is the same. Hope that makes sense.
As it comes to solea vs solea por bulerias i have more questions then answers myself. I tend to believe solea por bulerias has a different rhythmic swing than Solea(res) and both this video and Diego's solo to me sound more like solea por bulerias.
Paco Peña (who is very strict in labeling) produced many different soleares recordings in the 70/80ties and they were al labeled soleares. The only solea por bulerias he recorded was called solea, which i always considered to be short for solea (por bulerias). Not sure he did the labeling of that piece himself or trusted it to others.
I don't know when soleares became solea (or if both were used from the very start) but it is very well possible that solea means different things to different persons and/or in different periods of time, like solea(res) vs solea (por bulerias). Some dance videos of plain soleares are old fashionedly labeled "solea por bulerias" for no other reason then that fact the soleares ends with a standard bulerias finale (por bulerias).
When my father came in contact with flamenco for the first time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E. Alegrias was played in A and every single time he encountered an alegrias (?) in E it was called "por rosa" (and never ever alegrias...in the same way a seguiriyas in E is often called serranas, although they are slightly different). Not sure if an alegrias in E was structurally called por rosa or that "por rosa" was a specific song, but that didn't change the fact that in that period of time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E (other then the ones called por rosa).
It's been discussed extensively. The labels will have different meanings based on context. Simply put, you and your dad think like guitar soloists. You are both correct in that sense (even about alegrias sort of) but thinking guitaristically. There is more too it when you get to cante specifically and baile too.
clear examples here where I respond with video and details.
furthermore, Diego (who does NOT "pale in comparison" to his dad as accompanist, sorry to say although for sure not better than) has done some interesting things with his accompaniment. IN the old days solea was played FOR CANTE, either por medio or por arriba at the type of tempo and feel that many refer to today as "solea por buleria". always. but they NEVER CALLED ANY CANTE EVER "solea por buleria". buleria por solea is a different melody altogether, but not accompanied any differently for the same singer than a solea would have been (except maybe a little faster and occasional half compases). SEE NORMANS SITE FOR SPECIFIC LETRAS. Solea de alcala Solea de cadiz solea de jerez are SOLEARES, different styles.
siguiriyas also much faster for singers in the old days. CHECK PIRIñACA. Baile slowed everything down over time to some weird exagerrated slow motion (like slow motion fight scene in a movie) and that way to play seems to have taken a new slow heavy life that everybody these day thinks is the definative version of solea (same happened for siguiriyas and tientos). Diego took his modern approach to guitar playing with interesting tuning etc, and as a sort of neo classical throw back sticks the old speedy tempo style of accomp to those forms. On his disc both his solea and his siguiriya are that way. Its like he is saying , "yes I am new but come from a VERY old school. This old hat driving fast compas thing is not old any more, its the NEW thing again." As you can see with the singer his point was to show what he is doing is not some weird composition, it is functioning accompaniment for cante por solea (like it or not). His siguiriyas was recorded for the singing of potito as well.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to mezzo)
"Flamencos de Gañanía" is the title of my book. The word is pronounced ganya-KNEE-a.
Gañanes were field-workers, and the word comes from Arabic. In western Andalucía they lived in large makeshift barracks called gañanías, 70 to 100 people "mattress to mattress", no privacy, no separation between families, no running water or electricity, usually no windows or even a door, occasional snakes and other critters living in the grass roof...
When poverty forced flamencos around Jerez and Lebrija to live in these conditions for months at a time, especially after the Spanish civil war, some great flamenco went on at night when there was nothing else to do, and this is where a lot of Jerez-style flamenco was cooked-up or perpetuated.
Why does anyone think this is minor key? There are contemporary harmonies, but it's still phrygian and you can sing soleá or soleá por bulería to it just fine.
Soleá does not change into soleá por bulería when you pick up the tempo. Soleá por bulería (also called bulería por soleá, bulerías al golpe and bulería pa'escuchá) are other cantes. A singer may sing both soleá and sxb in the same set, just as he or she might sing alegrías and mirabrás, or siguiriyas and siguiriyas cabales...the cantes continue to be what they are.
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to zata)
I tend to believe solea por bulerias has a different rhythmic swing than Solea(res) and both this video and Diego's solo to me sound more like solea por bulerias.
Never try to identify a cante by the tempo at which it’s interpreted. Names change and evolve, different eras and geological locations must always be considered.
Paco Peña (who is very strict in labeling) produced many different soleares recordings in the 70/80ties and they were al labeled soleares.
The term “soleares” is seldom used any more. Now, the favored label is soleá. Same cantes.
The only solea por bulerias he recorded was called solea, which i always considered to be short for solea (por bulerias).
Unless there was cante, there’s no distinction.
I don't know when soleares became solea.
The way I remember it, around 1970 both terms were circulating, but but “soleá” quickly became the hipper choice. It was around the same time the word “palos” began to be used, “variaciones” became “falsetas” and “tocaores” became “guitarristas”. That time frame coincides with the Paco/Camarón boom, they may have been responsible for these changes.
When my father came in contact with flamenco for the first time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E.
Location location location. In Cádiz, C position has always been considered THE position for alegrías, while A position was favored for cantinas (these things usually end up being due to the range of the cantes). I remember when Paco came up with an alegrías in E…overnight it became the preferred position. But not in Cádiz, where they clung to C, and it does have a special feel. Nowadays of course such discussions are meaningless since the fret-board has become everyone’s playground.
Alegrias was played in A and every single time he encountered an alegrias (?) in E it was called "por rosa" (and never ever alegrias...in the same way a seguiriyas in E is often called serranas, although they are slightly different). Not sure if an alegrias in E was structurally called por rosa or that "por rosa" was a specific song, but that didn't change the fact that in that period of time there was (or seemed to be) no such thing as an alegrias in E (other then the ones called por rosa).
Alegrías in E position may be the oldest kind, attributed to Paco de Lucena (stuff you read, but who knows...). The cante of rosas exists, and because of its specific range it came to be associated with E position, although the position is never (ever) determined by the cante, nor vice versa.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to zata)
quote:
Gañanes were field-workers, and the word comes from Arabic. In western Andalucía they lived in large makeshift barracks called gañanías, 70 to 100 people "mattress to mattress", no privacy, no separation between families, no running water or electricity, usually no windows or even a door, occasional snakes and other critters living in the grass roof...
Nice, thanks for the definition. So this sort of convivencias is perpetuated nowadays. I saw a documentary about los sin papeles who work in Adalucia fruit harvest. They're exploited by shark's land owners whom don't care a shiat about law labour andin their horticulture plant, the respect for human condition is reduced to a minimalist level. But who cares, we enjoy cheap fruit from there with hight level of pesticide inside no?
quote:
When poverty forced flamencos around Jerez and Lebrija to live in these conditions for months at a time, especially after the Spanish civil war, some great flamenco went on at night when there was nothing else to do, and this is where a lot of Jerez-style flamenco was cooked-up or perpetuated.
Maybe with the economical crisis, this kind of living is going to raise again among andalucian people. And more of them gonna be forced to join los sin papeles in these kind of living conditions. Sure it would be a little problematic for the sharks to maintain such indign behaviour with spanish people. It's more easy to act poorly with people who have no right to open their mouths...
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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)
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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to zata)
quote:
still phrygian and you can sing soleá or soleá por bulería to it just fine.
Thank you, that's what I was thinking. I've had the record for a while and love every bit of it, and I haven't tried to figure out any of the solea but I never thought it was minor.... I was worried my ear wasn't working right.
RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to Mark2)
quote:
I was worried my ear wasn't working right.
When I saw the title of this thread I thought "what a clever idea", even though a "soleá" in minor could only be a guitar solo, it would be an interesting experiment.
We already have soleá cante in major key, why not a soleá guitar solo in minor?
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to zata)
quote:
unless there is cante, there's no distiction
Thanks for taking the time to respond, it's always a pleasure to enjoy your longtime experience and insights.
Ricardo stated my father and i think like guitar soloists (probably true and indeed our main course) and as such i tend to believe "solea" and "solea por bulerias" demand a different kind of approach of the guitar player, both in accompanying as in SOLO playing.
An important part of our final exam at Rotterdam Conservatory is a performance with a singer and a dancer based on shaking hands, being informed what palos are on the menu (you don't know in advance), a small briefing of the intended ingredients (intro on the guitar, 2 copla's, falseta, copla, escobilla, finale) and there you go. I was very glad they selected a plain soleares (por arriba) and not one of my angstgegners "solea por medio" or "solea por bulias". I had the privilege to experience both palos in the years preceding my final exam, in which every now and then there were quality time meetings with professional singers and dancers, often the ones accompanying Paco on his tours (in my time we worked with people like Chaparro, Segundo Falcon and dancer Raul, who unfortunately died very young).
Personally i found it very difficult to play "solea por medio" because (like many others) i always tended to mutate to "solea por bulerias" which (as i understood ) was considered to have a different kind of swing (regardless the speed). As soon as i tended to mutate swing from Solea por medio> solea por buleria unintended both my father, paco, the singer and the dancer would correct me, inviting me to try it again...and again...and again....i never got a hang of it.
When i listen to the really great players accompanying "por medio" or "por bulerias" i do indeed detect and appreciate a difference in the swing and approach and admire there ability not to mutate from 1 form to the other unintended. The same subtle difference in playing style and rhythmic approach i also tend to detect when they play SOLO, but only with the really great players. To me it has nothing to do with tempo, but all with the swing, the overall structure and the type of falsetas that comes with it. Solea por bulerias in general seems to be a little more strict and militaristic.
The piece Diego is playing to me seems to lean into the direction of solea por bulerias.....but that's how i feel it and obviously i can be dead wrong :-).
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Ricardo stated my father and i think like guitar soloists (indeed our main course) and as such i tend to believe "solea"and "solea por bulerias"demand a different kind of approach of the guitar player, both in accompanying as in SOLO playing.
A “guitar solo of soleá por bulería” is an oxymoron, but the term circulates because record companies don’t like to see titles repeated. It’s like 50 years ago when Cádiz singer Manolo Vargas recorded both “alegrías” and “cantinas” on a record, and when asked what the difference was (flamenco fans didn’t used to distinguish between the two) he answered it was only because the record company wouldn’t let him record two “alegrías”.
Flamenco forms, like word definitions, depend on who, when and where. Slow and phrased soleá is a relatively recent creation that came about in the tablao area beginning around the early sixties. Decades ago when I started singing for classes at Amor de Dios, I was shocked at how slowly dance teacher María Rosa was giving her students soleá, and adapting to the pace was unbelievably difficult. Now I’m quite convinced such excesses detract from the cante (while possibly favoring the drama of the dance), because the verse and music lose coherence, and even compás ceases to work as glue.
I was very glad they asked me to do a plain soleares (por arriba) and not one of my angstgegners "solea por medio"or "solea por bulias". I had the privilege to experience both palos in the years preceding my final exam,
Por medio and por arriba are positions, not palos. Soleá is a palo. A singer may sing soleá without musical accompaniment, or a guitarist may come along and accompany their cante. Depending on the singer’s register, the guitarist might choose to play por arriba, por medio or any combination of contemporary positions and harmonies. This is when the singer’s “true tone” becomes relevant…not “por arriba on 3”, but “G” for example, and I hear younger guitarists speak in these terms…although hell would probably have to freeze over and defrost a few times before most singers could grasp that.
Personally i found it very difficult to play "solea por medio"because (like many others) i always tended to mutate to "solea por bulerias" which (as i understood ) was considered to have a different kind of swing (regardless the speed).
Anyone who tells you that, is simplifying to make it easier for you. I know from experience students want clear-cut explanations, not blurry statements about “sometimes…often…there are people who…”, I don’t blame teachers who resort to simplification, but then it’s up to the individual to discover the nuances.
As soon as i tended to mutate swing from Solea por medio> solea por buleria both my father, paco, the singer and the dancer would correct me, inviting me to try it again...and again...and again....i never got a hang of it.
It makes sense, they want you to be sensitive to different “aires”. It also lends more variety to a solo repertoire. In Lebrija, which is on the border between Jerez flamenco (slow soleá) and Sevilla flamenco (clippy soleá), it was becoming fashionable for a few years for guitarists to refer to “soleá rítmica” to indicate soleá as interpreted in Sevilla province. But singers aren’t taking to it (last year I saw Inés Bacán announce “soleá rítmica” and then crack up right on stage), so I don’t think it’s going to stick, and you need to be sensitive to which accompaniment your singer wants. If it’s a guitar solo, do whatever you like, and call it whatever you like.
When i listen to the really great players accompanying "por medio"or "por bulerias"i do indeed detect and appreciate a difference in the swing and approach and admire there ability not to mutate from 1 form to the other unintended. The same subtle difference in playing style and rhythmic approach i also tend to detect when they play SOLO, but only with the really great players.
You’re looking for something that doesn’t exist. There are not two forms but a variety of interpretations of soleá. By contrast, soleá por bulería (bulería por soleá, bulerías al golpe, bulería pa’escuchá) does always have that unphrased feel (which is also used for soleá)…not necessarily faster, just unphrased and march-like.
The bottom line is, the cante, not the tempo or interpretation, is what determines the “palo” (forgive quote marks, my generation is still uncomfortable with that word), and there is no substitute for listening to a lot of cante and distinguishing the forms.
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to zata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
I was very glad they asked me to do a plain soleares (por arriba) and not one of my angstgegners "solea por medio"or "solea por bulias". I had the privilege to experience both palos in the years preceding my final exam,
Por medio and por arriba are positions, not palos.
Palos referred to solea and solea por bulerias which i believe(d) to be different styles.
quote:
The bottom line is, the cante, not the tempo or interpretation, is what determines the “palo” (forgive quote marks, my generation is still uncomfortable with that word), and there is no substitute for listening to a lot of cante and distinguishing the forms.
Just turned 50 i still feel uncomfortable using that word myself :-). Like you i prefer to call them forms....was that how they were called in the "old days"?
I stopped enjoying solo records/performances a long time ago (unless they are really really good)...prefer cante.
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
Palos referred to solea and solea por bulerias which i believe(d) to be different styles.
Yes. Different styles...of cante. Not different tempos or chord positions.
quote:
The bottom line is, the cante, not the tempo or interpretation, is what determines the “palo” (forgive quote marks, my generation is still uncomfortable with that word), and there is no substitute for listening to a lot of cante and distinguishing the forms.
Just turned 50 i still feel uncomfortable using that word myself :-). Like you i prefer to call them forms....was that how they were called in the "old days"?
We just said "cante", as in "What cante are you going to sing?" If there were no cante, nothing more was needed, as in "What are you going to dance?"
RE: Solea' in Eminor...More odds and... (in reply to zata)
quote:
We just said "cante", as in "What cante are you going to sing?" If there were no cante, nothing more was needed, as in "What are you going to dance?"
Hey, when are you ever going to visit us in Cádiz, without a press gig? When I raise the ogre of cante on this forum, everbody ignores it, bu they pay attention to you!
Remember the great tapas en El Faro and its postre de bizcocho de chocolate templado con helado de vainilla?
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RE: Solea' in Eminor... Diego Del Morao (in reply to zata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
quote:
I was worried my ear wasn't working right.
When I saw the title of this thread I thought "what a clever idea", even though a "soleá" in minor could only be a guitar solo, it would be an interesting experiment.
We already have soleá cante in major key, why not a soleá guitar solo in minor?
Niño Ricardo recorded a solo guitar piece called "Gaditanas" that is a solea that changes into major for a bit, then minor, then ends in major. Honestly its indistinguishable from an Alegrias solo in E that does the same type of thing...but at least there is your "solea in E minor" example. Faucher transcribed it in his book of Niño Ricardo transcriptions.
quote:
Palos referred to solea and solea por bulerias which i believe(d) to be different styles.
Brother, like I said originally it depends on the mentality of the people involved. A singer that sings for baile and guitar players that play for baile think differently. Estela is correct that there is no difference when you are thinking CANTE, both different ways of playing can work depending on context and you describe it finally by the actual cante melody being sung not how you play guitar. But if you play for baile it is totally different ball game.
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