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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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 RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Escribano)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Escribano
quote:
There's no way the builder's name can be used, as that is proprietary
Therein lies a problem, for me. I would want to know about the luthier. If the price is in the many thousands, why would a decent luthier stay nameless? Happy to consider a Bernal 'made under supervision' for £500-£1000 but one of unknown provenance, made to a plan, I assume and exported to the US for 'fine-tuning' is horse of many colours.
I value highly the conversations with the luthier before construction, during construction and after construction. That is not particularly expensive, even in these tough times.
I'll try to state this clearly. The factory made guitar is made to my specifications by the owner, plus several of his master builders who help build the guitar. The factory set up is such, that they have a worker who does nothing but make bridges, etc.
Then the guitar is shipped to my shop in Texas to be fine-tuned by voicing the sound and bringing the articulation/pulsation into correct balance, then it is shipped back to the sales agent who sends the guitar to a person of his choice to be finally polished and set up with the action, etc.
Then the guitar goes to a music company which buys it for resale. Things similar to this are done, and have been done years before this builder. This is just one of many ways to perform a legitimate business.
And if less expensive guitars are your interest, then that's fine but I'm striving to present a higher quality instrument and service, to players who are seeking my name and expertise in a guitar.
I think you will agree that high quality can just go so far with the cosmetic value, and then it becomes the voice that is the attraction. This is my expertise and my calling.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 3 2013 23:10:26
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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Tom Blackshear and I have gotten on each others' nerves a number of times, but in this instance I ask all to be fair to him for two reasons:
1. If he is advertising his guitars and construction technique, is not doing anything than other luthiers don't already do here, from Stephen to Anders, form Peter to Andy.
2. He is being blatantly honest about the instruments, and I sugget we welcome this rare type of disclosure which gives consumers a clear understanding of the origin and manufacturing of the product.
There has been an ongoing discussion as to whether Conde Hermanos [and now the sole remaining brother, Felipe] really build [can they?] themselves all the guitars they produce, or rely on third party manufacturing and subcontractors to churn out their famous Conde [the allegation being that Carpio and/or his sons produce them].
However, I believe Tom Blackshear has selected an ill-advised marketing formula which wil ultimately hurt is reputation, because:
As everyone points out, no prudent buyer would purchase a product without clear indication of its source, particularly at $8,000; and
Because is associating his name to what wil be perceived as an attempt to confuse consumers or even as a scheme.
What Tom is doing is a License: gives permission to someone to build under his name but promises quality control. Many products we buy are produced and distributed under this simple yet very effective arrangement.
But Licensing is inherently an arrangement for mass [or at least in large scale] produced goods. Most clothing designers would not even know how to design, produce and distribute handbags or cologne, hence they may often license these classes of product.
Guitars are quite a different product. When priced above the $3,000 threshold, consumers expect a guitar to be single-handedly made by a luthier, or a small team of luthiers.
Kenny Hill is pursuing a similar strategy with his New World Series [approx $2,000 average which is advertised as:
"a wide variety of excellent lower cost imported guitars that are designed, developed and distributed exclusively through Hill Guitar Company."
The Label reads: Made In China, and does not even mention his name. The introductory note spells it out, 'developed and distributed through Kenny Hill" but he does not associate his name with it. Smart man.
My two cents...
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gj Michelob
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Date May 3 2013 23:42:50
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
Guitars are quite a different product. When priced above the $3,000 threshold, consumers expect a guitar to be single-handedly made by a luthier, or a small team of luthiers.
Kenny Hill is pursuing a similar strategy with his New World Series [approx $2,000 average which is advertised as:
"a wide variety of excellent lower cost imported guitars that are designed, developed and distributed exclusively through Hill Guitar Company."
The Label reads: Made In China, and does not even mention his name. The introductory note spells it out, 'developed and distributed through Kenny Hill" but he does not associate his name with it. Smart man.
My two cents...
Thanks for your comments:
First, this proprietary factory makes some top of the line guitars for Spanish houses, $10,000 plus, so the implication that it applies only to lesser expensive instruments is not correct.
Also, the higher priced subcontracted guitars do not carry the factory label but the guitar house from which it was contracted for the factory to build.
Secondly, Kenny Hill does not have a working luthier's part on the building process of his Chinese guitars, to my knowledge, and this sets him apart from having to list his name on them, if he chooses not to.
I have a working part in the guitar, as a guitar maker, and I finalize the "part that is art," the sound, top tension and equilibrium, etc, with additional time....didn't mean to make it rhyme :-)
This working relationship puts me right onto the label as contributing builder, if I so choose. And I might add that this allows me to produce the best guitar I can at a much lower price margin than my own instruments. Believe me, I've done a lot of thinking on this project... Let the factory do a quality build and then I add the voicing, etc.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 4 2013 2:21:01
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gj Michelob
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)
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quote:
This working relationship puts me right onto the label as contributing builder
Query: How will the label read?
1. Made in.... Spain?
2. On...........the year of our Lord 2013
3. By: ..........?????
4. Fine Tuned in the USA
5. By: Tom Blacshear
I understood that Item n. 3 [the name of the luthier or factory who built the instrument will not be disclosed, and not reflected on the Label. Am I correct?
quote:
... Let the factory do a quality build and then I add the voicing, etc.
Query: Haven't you granted the factory a License, the right to produce under your name, subject to your quality control?
Finally if both of these premises are correct, I suggest that you will inexorably compromise your reputation, and -more unfairly- the value of the guitars you built until now and are in the hands of your unjustly affected fans.
This is 101 licensing, Tom.
If you were diversifying by producing
either a 'second' line [a cheaper student guitar] or
accessories... Cejillas, Strings or Baseball Caps
then I would have nothing to object. But to license out your core product, your $8,000 guitar, is a formidable mistake.
Your honesty is what punishes you, really. If you had outsourced production and told nobody, you could possibly 'get away' with it. I praise you and respect you for your honesty, but it will cost you dearly to 'conceal' the name of the 'factory' [as you defined it] giving rise to the perception of a 'factory churned out copy' of what a Blackshear once was.
Think about it: even a 'Manuel Reyes (Hijo)' is not a 'Manuel Reyes' but at least one knows who made it !!
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gj Michelob
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Date May 4 2013 3:35:21
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to rogeliocan)
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quote:
Anders, and I am sincere, (and it is none of my business) you should relax and use Mr. Blackshear as one of your personal goals to reach a 'higher state of mind' (don't know how to put it) and just let it go; to one day, be able to read this stuff and completely not care, breath faster, or get a hot flash. In the big scheme of things, and in your personal life, does all this really matter...
Really don't want to offend, but I dealt with that type of thing on another subject and it has changed my life for the better (in my case it was part of my daily life).
Rogeliocan,
Thank you (and you´re not offending. On the contrary). I follow what you write and I agree. I just wrote what I meant. I think there´s nothing wrong with that. I write the way i do, because I´m a very passionate person. And I´m not going to change that. Thats what makes me live and what makes me build the guitars I build.
I let things go, but every time I visit this foro I get reminded of the fact that I dont belong here anymore. So I should maybe let the whole thing go.....
So I repeate myself:
This whole subject has nothing to do with luthiery. Its smoke and fake and a lot of lousy money.
And please, TomB... Stop writing "my friend" when you reply to my posts. We all know thats its fake and false.
( you may call me "old sport"  )
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Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date May 4 2013 8:52:41
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to gj Michelob)
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quote:
Finally if both of these premises are correct, I suggest that you will inexorably compromise your reputation, and -more unfairly- the value of the guitars you built until now and are in the hands of your unjustly affected fans.
Thanks for caring but this issue is either going to increase or go to the wood pile. Time will tell how successful it will be. And there is no way to tell unless I try it out.
I no longer can build guitars fast enough to keep up with customer demand, so this warrants some kind of shift from a total build in my shop alone. Whether this will work or not, depends on the market. The first prototype was successful and is advertised at Savage Music Company.
My sales agent told me that Rich Sayage could hardly put it down, he liked it so much. So, I think this is a good start. I had another builder inquire about my business connection, just last night, to see if he could find a way to work out a solution with a factory project.
There have been other US builders do this, although mainly for student guitars, and and it has been fairly successful. However, things do change for time to time.
The market shifts back and forth and I suppose that timing is an important part of any new business venture. The opportunity has presented itself and I took it, so let's see where it goes.
Either way is fine with me but if I didn't try it, then I wouldn't know if it would work. And I don't mind mentioning this venture to others, as it already has prompted one builder to ask about doing it for himself.
And to mention Kenny Hill and his Chinese connection; he decided to bring back his main construction jobs to California, as per an article in a news release, and this is a progressive and realistic move for him, based on having better controls for his working schedule. But I feel the time is right to at least give the Spanish connection a try, to see if it has merit to be successful with my participation in it.
And remember, this is not a unique business venture, as it is done all the time in Spain and perhaps to a lesser degree, in other parts of the world. This information may be new to this list but not to those who are, or have been, involved with this type of commerce for a long time.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 4 2013 10:16:39
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estebanana
Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to jshelton5040)
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I'm not getting involved in this thread, but I can tell you at the end of the day hand made things will always be around.
Surfboards, ceramics, sculpture, custom bike frames, violin....you name it there s always a user who needs it to be handmade for it to have value, quality and the right attributes for performance, for them.
Trends and styles in marketing are the things that come and go; hand making things will be here as long as civilization worth being in exists. Culture is made, not sold. People who make things by hand or with machines they guide by heart mind and hand are the creators of culture. Marketing simply packages culture to be sold to those who have not had enough experience yet to curate a particular culture subject for themselves. In its most altruistic form, marketing makes selections and choices for those who are still learning about a particular culture so they make hopefully fewer mistakes getting a product.
But the culture of hand making of certain objects will always have a demand, an audience, and marketing will fluctuate and trend in and out. The sticky part is that the survivors who make things by hand are the ones who keep going no matter what marketing is doing.
Threading the eye of the needle, not everyone is suited for it. Selling the needle is easier.
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https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date May 5 2013 3:59:21
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)
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quote:
I'm not getting involved in this thread, but I can tell you at the end of the day hand made things will always be around.
Surfboards, ceramics, sculpture, custom bike frames, violin....you name it there s always a user who needs it to be handmade for it to have value, quality and the right attributes for performance, for them.
Absolutely, but you just got involved by giving your opinion :-)
Please feel free to give more. This is an open forum and it needs to be fed to succeed in making dialog worthy of its valid qualities. No one person has all the answers.
Anyway, this was brought to me, I didn't go searching for it. But I think the idea has merit, otherwise we wouldn't have so many endorsements from people who have made their position in society well known.
But this is not just name recognition, as it has a viable connection to an actual finish out with art, as it is, and this is what I would be connected with, if this becomes an ongoing reality
How many guitar houses in Spain utilize the approach, to make guitars in the name of someone who never touches the instrument? I would venture to say that there are many that do this, even world wide.
But I totally agree with you about the independent artisan, there will always be a place for those who express themselves through their art, whatever it may be.
I've had 53 years in this business to realize that.
And if I may mention the guitar maker Arcangel Fernandez. His position in the work place, before his retirement, had been to hire two apprentices and let them do the basic work building guitars, for many years. And then Sr. Fernandez would finalize the voicing in his instruments after the guitars had been made.
So, this is a viable way to conduct business without destroying a makers label, even though he doesn't build the entire guitar. And I just heard that his apprentices/co-partners are continuing to build, possibly under his house label or another name?
So, I think that the basic concern I've read here is that guitars made under this situation shouldn't cost more than 3000 dollars. Who said this and what does it actually mean?
Perhaps it's that many of those who say this are confusing their place, as buyers, due to their own preference of wanting a high quality instrument for a little cash.
This is certainly understandable but out of place, when guitars are being made with the cost of 1000's of dollars for factory made instruments.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 5 2013 12:15:46
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I played a couple of your guitars. They are quite good actually, high quality instruments
Ricardo, thank you for your kind words but the guitars you played were dated compared to what I produce now. I think its fair to say that my work in voicing instruments has gotten quite mature and their quality demands careful consideration for anyone who chooses to critique them.
To make this short, the amount that you are suggesting for the guitar's cost is more than you state. In fact, I earn very little money considering that the music companies take the greater margin with their mark-ups. In other words I make a fraction of their profit. But this is fair and I understand commerce with this ideal in mind.
But what concerns me is that this might be too much of a competitive move against my regular builds to where I'll loose orders to a lesser priced instrument, due to my fine-tuning skills.
I'll offer this to you, to fine tune one of your personal guitars that might be called a factory guitar, that is fan braced, and you would incur the cost of $1,000 prepaid plus shipping both ways, if you are interested.
And BTW, there is no guarantee that you will get a cheap transitional guitar equal in value to a $10,000 quality instrument sent back to you, as it is always a risk in the art of fine tuning. But I've done about 10 guitars for the sales agent with no failures, so far. And this keeps the wolf away from my door 
And as to the "NAME" of the Spanish factory that my sales agent deals with, I have agreed in principle not to talk about it; and you know that the only credible thing all guitar makers should have in common, is their word.
And what this alludes to is that I have no direct dealings with the Factory but with my sales agent who handles all the business for me. And I won't be in touch with the Factory owner until he comes and takes a fine tuning class from me, perhaps in August of this year.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 5 2013 20:47:35
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Arash
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
(untouched it's 3 k...after YOUR personal adjustment it's value is 8K?). For only half what you charge for your top model, it totally sounds fair. (Although I am sure I can find a fantastic Reyes and other collectable master pieces for 15K, infact did so for a student! But it's not my place to dictate your own fee). The ISSUE I think, with ethics, is that you want to keep they luthier you use A SECRET FROM US!!!! It is kind of "cold" considering how open most of us are on the board. Only reason I can see for keeping it a secret is this.
Lets say it's Esteve hypothetically helping you. So I can take a cheap but comparible quality esteve and play it next to your blackshear model, and see literally what the fine tuning is doing, and decide if it justifies the price difference. Yes or no? I would think that your confidence in your abilty would allow it to be a none issue to simply state "yes esteve is building to my design if you must know...". So it would pretty much make everybody cool off on the "smoke and mirrors" stuff I think.
Ricardo
So after all this BS about Conde all these years, everybody who gets older like Felipe is now doing more or less the same thing or what? :D
just kidding, no hard feelings.
Here is probably how it works:
when you buy that $8000 "fine tuned" guitar from the dealer, your money is probably devided more or less this way:
3000-4000 to the dealer
2000 to the factory
2000-3000 to Mr. Blackshear for fine tuning and his name
The same is by the way when you buy a Felipe Conde or whatever.
The dealers gets them probably around 4000.
when you buy the 3000 euro guitar from Anders or anybody else who does it the same way (direct + everything done by himself), you pay 3000 to anders, or 5000 to stephen, etc. etc... nothing for the middlemen.
now at the end of the day, all that matters is:
- how much money you have and want to spend
- which guitar you like most
- if you care about the pension/annuity of Mr. blackshear, Conde or whoever
 , if you care about the things Anders mentioned,,,, if you care about all this stuff (If at all)
Now if i personally had to involve these kind of feelings and issues, i would be more concerned about people like Anders who are so passionate and very concerned about the art, do everything theirselves, have a hard time making a living from it, etc. and also at the same time give a very reasonable price ..... instead of Mr.Blackshear and his 15.000$ guitars and his new idea with the factory or Felipe Conde, Mariano Conde, etc. There are people who have nothing to eat, so if i should care about these things, i would care about those people first.
But i prefer the sound of a conde and Sanchis. and at the same time i don't have much money. So i buy a Sanchis or a used Conde. simple as that.
If people have 15K and like the Blackshear guitar, or $8000 and don't care that they were partly outsourced, why not.
However, I would say that the resale value of the "fine tuned" guitars (outsourced to factories) will be low (and i don't mean the amount but the percentage compared to what they paid) in the future compared to those which he made himself, if the owners should decide to sell them again. but who knows....
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Date May 18 2013 11:53:54
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Tom Blackshear
Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Arash)
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quote:
However, I would say that the resale value of the "fine tuned" guitars (outsourced to factories) will be low (and i don't mean the amount but the percentage compared to what they paid) in the future compared to those which he made himself, if the owners should decide to sell them again. but who knows....
Arash, I don't think you really understand life in general. I spent 53 years in this business with a sharing and giving attitude to those who wanted to learn the guitar building trade... usually for free.
I've always been open to share my techniques with others, but now, I have to charge for my teaching, as the source of my income is becoming of less value as we speak. The US dollar is practically valueless and getting less everyday.
I'm paid under a $1000 for my tuning of the factory guitars, and they actually cost more from the factory than what you suspect, and then the retailer marks them up for his profit, which is an acceptable business for all stores that need to earn a living.
And then we have the general populace that buy instruments according to the value they place on any builder's product, which my $15,000 Miguel Rodriguez style guitar is placed significantly below other master builders guitars on the market today.
By the time I get through with each instrument, taking approximately 300 hours to build and finish out with the fine-tuning process, most carpet cleaners make more than this per hour....no joke.
So, this is the reason I don't think you understand today's business practice with guitar builders. If a builder wants to try and build a guitar in 50 hours, then that's far better than I can do......with my own hands.
If the market chooses not to buy my guitars for the price I ask, then the prices would have to be adjusted for the market. It's very simple to understand, one makers art is judged differently from others. Not all guitars are the same. And let's face it, one builder could not handle all the high end business, nor even 10 builders, for that matter.
And to make it clear, I don't post here with the thought that any list member will purchase my guitars, I do it because I love the art, and to let people know I'm still alive
And when you say: "Now if i personally had to involve these kind of feelings and issues, i would be more concerned about people like Anders who are so passionate and very concerned about the art, do everything theirselves, have a hard time making a living from it, etc. and also at the same time give a very reasonable price ..... instead of Mr.Blackshear and his 15.000$ guitars and his new idea with the factory or Felipe Conde, Mariano Conde, etc. There are people who have nothing to eat, so if i should care about these things, i would care about those people first. ..................."
When you use Anders as a competitive factor here, I think you misuse the terms of better business practice. We all have and are struggling to made a living, some with more responsibility than others, but nonetheless we all struggle. In other words, this should not be about class warfare but genuine caring and concern about all builders who ply their trade with the world. Each one of us shares in responsibilities according to what is given to us.
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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
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Date May 18 2013 14:35:25
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