RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

Good choice and I've always wanted to build this pattern but I only have two 50's patterns that are close to his date that I can consider.

However, I know his guitar sound well and could try and close the deal with fine tuning.

I have a correct plan for the Gerundino but the Conde is doable, as I've built some of Faustino's work over the years and I like his pattern, at least up until 1968 with the Conde pattern I have of Paco's brother, Raymond.

So, Nino Ricardo's guitar should be closely replicated due to the other 50's patterns I have.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2014 17:05:28

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SephardRick

quote:

1955 Conde of Nino Ricardo

Tom,

Nino Ricardo's 1955 Conde has my vote as being a "Man, Moment, Machine" choice.

complete with the banjo sounding low trebles snapping like crazy, and the baddly glued on tap plate?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2014 21:10:10

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

complete with the banjo sounding low trebles snapping like crazy

Some think banjo like sustain makes good flamenco and so do I - IMHO

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2014 21:28:23

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Payo Humberto at Nino Ricardo's house trying his guitars. Maybe the 1955 Conde is amongst them, the peghead with the non media luna, non typical esteso shape?

This one? (1.37 to compare headstock shape)

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Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2014 21:58:37

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to orsonw)

Thank you for your post, it is good to hear the guitar with someone else playing it, as it gives certain sounds that aren't produced by the original artist.

I've got some fine tuning ideas that I hope will work with this pattern....anyway it'll keep me out of bed and working again.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 15 2014 22:36:19

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

complete with the banjo sounding low trebles snapping like crazy, and the baddly glued on tap plate?

Well, it won't be a bench copy, for sure

I'm going to try and incorporate my own ideas in this one to make it acceptable for a new guitar but with the tonal ideal that I've heard on some of Ricardo's prime recordings when his guitar was fairly new. But it's a crap shoot, to say the least.

There is no guarantee that it will work. But I would like to do this tutorial with the idea that if it does work, then there may be an offering to the Guild of American Luthiers to print out some copies.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2014 13:31:49

Morante

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I have a correct plan for the Gerundino but the Conde is doable

Joder, "doable"!!!??? Arte por favor. If the Gerundino is difficult and the Conde easy, you should do what noone else could do: la Gerundino.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2014 15:15:43

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Morante)

quote:

If the Gerundino is difficult and the Conde easy, you should do what none else could do: la Gerundino.

Actually, the Gerundino is an easier build than the older Faustino Conde style. So I've pretty much made up my mind to explore the Conde's possibilities. I'll try and present a step by step semi tutorial, with pictures and explanations, when I can get started with it.

This could be a real break-through with the old Conde style or just a good guitar which most any competent builder could emulate if they wanted to. And as far as the art of these old masters is concerned, my intention is to draw public attention to these older styles with the possibility to motivate players to try them out.

Many builders could benefit from it, if everything goes right with this exploration; even the Conde group could start selling some of the older styles again.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2014 20:55:13

jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
Many builders could benefit from it, if everything goes right with this exploration; even the Conde group could start selling some of the older styles again.

You know Tom, I'm pretty close to the same age as you and I have had the opportunity to play many of those "old master pieces" when they were still pretty common. I've even owned a few (Rodriguez, Sobrinos, Ramirez, etc.). Overall my experience has been that modern guitars are much better and more uniform in quality. The worst of the old guitars I've played was a worn out Santos followed by a worn out Arcangel Fernandez. I don't think there is any mystery to the old guitars they were just guitars...some good, some awful. They're fascinating to examine but only to collectors or builders most players would only want one as an oddity or curiosity never as a guitar for performance.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 16 2014 22:55:59

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to jshelton5040)

You hit the nail right on its head.

The only redeeming part to this is if some-how the fine-tuning or slight modification improves it, even a little bit toward being a great guitar that is modeled toward today's styles. There is no real purpose to build it like an old school model, just to appeal to a few collectors, but to improve it by bringing it to comply with modern techniques. This would be my purpose with this style.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2014 2:50:05

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

but to improve it by bringing it to comply with modern techniques. This would be my purpose with this style

Tom,

Form a player's point of view you have captured my attention on the proposed project.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2014 13:15:32

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

I have to admit that right now this is just a hypothetical move toward improving an old master style flamenco guitar. I tried to do it with other styles and have met with some success but there is always going to be a grey area every time I switch styles.

So, some of the process I have learned from other builds will go into this style, to see if it will work. No doubt there will be some hair pulling to try and figure it out.

And I think it's a good idea to record this particular (semi) tutorial, win or lose, as a marker for future builds. Wouldn't it be interesting to try and produce a Nino Ricardo style guitar with more power and projection.........is it even possible??

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2014 14:08:50

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Wouldn't it be interesting to try and produce a Nino Ricardo style guitar with more power and projection.........is it even possible??

Amen to that Brother!

Tom,

As I recall you once mentioned about experiencing the powerful performance of Sabicas in person. His notes forcefully projecting and bouncing off the rear wall. A 3-D performance I wish I could have heard. No doubt in my mind you could emulate the instrument Sabicas was playing as well. I can see where the outstanding musician's performances are a compulsion to construct another guitar.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2014 14:34:41

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear
Many builders could benefit from it, if everything goes right with this exploration; even the Conde group could start selling some of the older styles again.

You know Tom, I'm pretty close to the same age as you and I have had the opportunity to play many of those "old master pieces" when they were still pretty common. I've even owned a few (Rodriguez, Sobrinos, Ramirez, etc.). Overall my experience has been that modern guitars are much better and more uniform in quality. The worst of the old guitars I've played was a worn out Santos followed by a worn out Arcangel Fernandez. I don't think there is any mystery to the old guitars they were just guitars...some good, some awful. They're fascinating to examine but only to collectors or builders most players would only want one as an oddity or curiosity never as a guitar for performance.

Well, I am a relatively younger guy but feel there is something to the old saying "they don't make em like they used to". Maybe it is more about feel than sound, but there is something going on. I do agree modern guitars often get a bad rap just for being modern which is not always fair. But there is something to holding and playing an old instrument that has had a history of being played vs sitting in the case, it has some extra magic you can even smell. But certain details such as neck shape or bridge set up I only notice a few modern luthiers are tapping into. The concern about "volume" and "projection" I think is over emphasized. I much prefer balance and clarity, which often corresponds to relatively "quiet" guitars.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 17 2014 15:26:36

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

The concern about "volume" and "projection" I think is over emphasized. I much prefer balance and clarity, which often corresponds to relatively "quiet" guitars.

I agree that there is no reason to build a top just for volume but clarity can come with a thick or thin top depending on how it is braced. And as far as projection goes, there are certain facets with how the guitar is voiced for good projection.

This can happen with thick or thin tops.

But the point is how a guitar can be made with a thin top and have everything work well with its balance and clarity. It is true that a thick top carries music but a thin top can produce any number of tonal qualities with dimensional sounds, if it is built right.

I find this difficult but not impossible to achieve. And the more I work with it the more I learn; even to a point of success with some master designs.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Oct. 18 2014 21:32:48

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I agree that there is no reason to build a top just for volume but clarity can come with a thick or thin top depending on how it is braced. And as far as projection goes, there are certain facets with how the guitar is voiced for good projection.

This can happen with thick or thin tops.

This is something that I have experienced with my current tuning of the Adalid flamenco guitar which has a thicker top than my regular build. It actually has a louder sound and pretty close to equal harmonic dimensional quality.........

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 27 2015 23:52:48

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

To me, your Fine Tuning yield decisive results on nylon strung guitars.

Can Fine Tuning, along with dimensional vowel tone, be applied to a steel string acoustic guitar? Have you tried it?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 15:43:17

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

Most arch top builders understood these fine tuning adjustments, unlike many nylon strung guitar builders who had no idea 30 years ago that this technique could be used on classical and flamenco guitars.

You might call me one of the few experimenters of this method for nylon strung guitars some 30 years ago in the USA.

Spanish guitar makers have used this principle for generations but many of them have lost the technique due to factory methods creeping into a greater turn of guitars for profit.

Some higher quality Spanish builders still use similar methods, but they would prefer that they remain proprietary.

So, it's not that I'm the person that broke any kind of code or discovered anything new, I just worked with what information I could gather and built upon it. Perhaps some of it is new but the idea was already there.

In answer to your second question........ NO, I do not build steel strung guitars.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 16:18:25

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Most arch top builders understood these fine tuning adjustments

I suspected that Gibson used some type of fine tuning adjustment - even on their 1950's solid bodies. Those of us that played them, know there is a haunting singing quality, which has been lost over time.

It admirable you value the fine tuning process and want to perpetuate it.

Fine tuning the guitar structure in the steel string production is a lost art. As far as I know, it is not being done today by any one.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 16:39:11

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

Fine tuning the guitar structure in the steel string production is a lost art. As far as I know, it is not being done today by any one.

Tom Ribbecke is one arch top builder among others who work with this technique.

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/Builder_Profile_Ribbecke_Guitars

I've seen Tom work through his trap door model to adjust the tone.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 17:51:43

SephardRick

Posts: 358
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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Thanks...but, no thanks...

Ribbecke's sound clips don't speak to me like a Blackshear, Deutsch, or a Faulk masterpiece does.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 21:08:11

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

quote:

Ribbecke's sound clips don't speak to me like a Blackshear, Deutsch, or a Faulk masterpiece does.

I'd like to add Anders to this list as he has done more than any one guitar builder to make this forum what it is.........true, there will always be lots of gab back and forth with questions that sometimes go nowhere but Anders has paid his dues even before there was any lengthy dialog coming from the rest of us, and his art is definitely quality work.

We should also include some of the other makers who are in Granada, etc.

It takes a team of guitar builders on this list to make it work.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 28 2015 22:12:56

SephardRick

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

I might add that Ander's makes some of the most aesthetically pleasing guitars available for us mere mortals.

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 29 2015 14:04:17

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to SephardRick)

I appreciate Anders hard won recognition in this art......... and I don't wish to go through a repeat of years trying to learn the tradition, ever again, this is enough for me. I'm content to give it a rest and build when the spirit moves me.

One of my Miguel Rodriguez copies was shown to a top world class guitarist recently but I haven't heard regarding his critique yet; asking for a positive note might be more than I should hope for....but with God, all things are possible.

Well it turned out that he held the guitar up and looked inside at the label and said, Ah..yes!

That's it folks.......

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2015 0:58:32

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Well, some players and builder friends have told me that I should keep with replicating the tradition of the Miguel Rodriguez dynasty since this seems to be what I'm known for in the US and Europe.

Actually I need to make some house repairs so a few dozen of these models will put us in a better economic situation to retire on. It seems there is always some situation that calls me out of retirement.

I'm not complaining as this is my passion. And after over 40 years building this style I hope that it speaks to the M. Rodriguez family with great respect and admiration. So, there will be a return to building bench copies of their tradition. And this will be offered to those who prefer this style.

I'll be starting the R. Rodriguez build in about 2 weeks; right after I finish the 1968 Conde style tutorial. And time permitting, I'll try to add video for the way I fine tune this model.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2015 16:05:17

mmmenk

Posts: 54
Joined: Dec. 26 2015

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

you get inside the guitar and give it a massage with superfine abrasives,
what do you think would happen if someone went really strong with rough grits?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 4:46:09

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to mmmenk)

quote:

you get inside the guitar and give it a massage with superfine abrasives, what do you think would happen if someone went really strong with rough grits?

Taking a position to tune the top with rough sandpaper is risky with certain master models that require very little adjustment.

If you are tuning a cheap model to turn the style into something else then pursue at your own risk.

The point of fine tuning is to know how not to hurt the tone.

Once this knowledge has been developed, things become a lot easier.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 16 2016 11:31:31

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1676
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Tom--
Why, if so, does your FINE TUNING method always require the removal of material and never the addition of material?

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Ethan Deutsch
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2016 9:54:42

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Ethan,

Most builders have a tendency to over-build a little to allow age to develop a path to better tonal response.

So it's a matter of sanding a microscopic amount of wood off in certain areas to adjust the tone in an instrument.

It requires certain intuitive skill, similar to tuning a violin after its initial build, but generally no scraping, just a little sanding.

And then once it's done I allow age to improve its tone.

The character of an instrument is fairly well set with top graduation and strut design but the nuance is improved with fine-tuning.

You can improve the feel of the left and right hand articulation, tension, as well as the depth of excitement, or to smooth out its dimensional quality.

All in all, it's a skill that can be developed with a teacher or just experimenting on your own, if you don't mind scraping a guitar or two.

I'll be covering some of this with my current Rodriguez tutorial, when I can finish it.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2016 11:41:46

SephardRick

Posts: 358
Joined: Apr. 11 2014

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

just experimenting on your own, if you don't mind scraping a guitar or two

So, once you remove too much material, it's reaches the point of no return.

What are the negative sound characteristics you hear, once you go too far? Does the instrument sound muffled?

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Rick

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 18 2016 15:05:18