RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR

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Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to britguy)

since you mention the headstock, I cut the peg holes a little smaller to leave a little more wood mass to improve sound. The head design is slightly more empirical with added wood mass.

This is in addition to a few slight modifications to the bridge and how the top is set with a flat style but with a curve behind the bridge area, at the bottom, that tapers around the sides to the line across from the bridge. This gives an appearance of a domed top but with a flatness from the sound-hole to the bottom of the top.

The taper at the bottom is slightly curved down around the sides in line with the bridge that is slightly curved. When the bridge is glued on, it slightly pulls the top up a bit, again, to make it appear that the top is domed, which it is not, as it is primarily constructed flat.

This helps sustain, projection, and better performance, imo.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2013 17:12:27

britguy

Posts: 712
Joined: Dec. 26 2010
From: Ontario, Canada

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I cut the peg holes a little smaller to leave a little more wood mass to improve sound. The head design is slightly more empirical with added wood mass.

Interesting!

So, if I understand you correctly, more wood mass at the headstock improves sound?

(I seem to recall reading that the same theory also applies to custom-quality banjos. . .)

But surely there has to be certain limits on just how much 'mass' one can (practically and aesthetically) incorporate into a guitar headstock design?

How does one determine that limit?

Just curious. I'm not a builder.

Maybe a dumb question, but I'm really interested in the factors that influence why some guitars can sometimes sound quite different from others. Yet may be very similar ( or even identical) in design and quality of materials. . .

I guess that's why the guitar is such an intriguing instrument. There are probably
no simple answers.

I think violins are much the same. . .

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Fruit farmer, Ontario, Canada

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 30 2013 22:55:42

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to britguy)

After 35 years building this design it has evolved toward what I find in its basic formula of wood mass to be what it is. But the ideal of finding this evolved basic, has been poco a poco.

There is nothing to be finalized but to keep with-in certain perimeters, adjusting things to see if there is any more quality to be pulled from this design...I think fine-tuning is certainly an avenue of exploration that I should continue with.

And it's not knowing the end of it that makes the journey more memorable.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 0:01:25

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to britguy)

quote:

So, if I understand you correctly, more wood mass at the headstock improves sound?

What I meant is that it adjusts sound to be what I want it to be, and strangely enough the contour and thickness, and taper of the neck, helps its performance and sound.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 0:07:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to britguy)

quote:

So, if I understand you correctly, more wood mass at the headstock improves sound?

Depends on what you want. If you want a light, percussive, fast flamenco guitar, then mass at the headstock does NOT improve sound.
If you want a fat sounding classical with lots of sustain, more mass at the headstock MIGHT improve sound. (there´s a limit.)

Britguy, you have a tendency to mix up things and compare apples to oranges.

Each music style has its own ethics soundwise and they all need instruments made for that.
Instruments like flamenco guitars, classical guitars, steelstring guitars, banjos, mandolins, and so on, all have a neck, body and strings but it doesnt mean that they have anything else in common. They all have to be designed on their own premisses to the musicform where they are supposed to perform.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 7:50:40

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Instruments like flamenco guitars, classical guitars, steelstring guitars, banjos, violins, mandolins, and so on, all have a neck, body and strings but it doesnt mean that they have anything else in common. They all have to be designed on their own premisses to the musicform where they are supposed to perform.

Hi Anders. Here in Scotland it is very common for a symphonic violinist to play with the orchestra during the week and at a Ceildih for a wedding on the saturday. They will use the same violin. Stylistic and musical coherence are a function of the players ear and experience. Noone ever gives a **** if someone is very good at both styles. Was that your experience in Ireland ?

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 10:31:33

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

Its been many years since I went to Ireland to play (1981)

Violins and fiddles are the same instrument and if its a good instrument it works in all styles.
So, you´re right, I was going to far in my statement above. I delete the word violin. But it was more said, because Britguy compared banjos and flamenco guitars. I know little about banjos, but it makes sense that mass in the headstock can make the thing vibrate a bit longer but it doesnt mean that a flamenco guitar will be better if you construct it like a good banjo.

Bass in headstock means rounding the sound and more sustain. Is that considered to be very flamenco?
You know how a big body and heavy classical sounds when you try to play Jerez bulerias rasgueado on it? If so, then I think you what I mean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 15:55:52

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Its been many years since I went to Ireland to play (1981)

Time to hit the Shetlands then I say. Get off the boat and throw a stone, you will definitely hit a fiddle player, maybe two.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

But it was more said, because Britguy compared banjos and flamenco guitars. I know little about banjos, but it makes sense that mass in the headstock can make the thing vibrate a bit longer but it doesnt mean that a flamenco guitar will be better if you construct it like a good banjo.

.

If you construct a flamenco guitar like a good banjo but at the last minute opt for steel strings then what you get is a Selmer Macaferri. The sound great in one style and boy are they loud when played right. Could I play one all the time no chance, that ONE sound gets old real quick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Violins and fiddles are the same instrument and if its a good instrument it works in all styles.

This has been a choice as I am sure you know. I think that the situation could be more similar in guitar but noone is prepared to accept a happy medium. David Russel has always said that the first thing to do to make a (classical) guitar sound better is to make it easy to play. Serranito's flamenco guitars sound a bit 'sluggish'. Those guys are I suppose going for a happy medium, I am not sure I would. The thing I would change about my flamenco guitar is that I would like to be able to make the low E string sound really low, not much else I miss about classical that a good hall can't fix.

Do hardanger fiddle players bitch about non hardanger players ? I kind of doubt it, I just like the fact that it is possible for the ready interchange between classical and folk disciplines to lead to generations of violinist and fiddlers with very little snobbery or tit for tat inverted snobbery. Mutual respect is a good option and I hope that guitarists catch up. There is just too much good music out there, why let our ego's and jealousy and petty tribalism get in the way of enjoying it ? (not a question aimed at you Ander's)

Anyway sorry for barging in as I clearly know absolutely nothing about fine tuning a guitar and have been rabidly off-topic.

PS I was serious about the Shetland thing.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 23:44:12

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

Reyes??? Not even close.

Are you totally sure? There is a Reyes headstock I know of that is not unlike this one Tom displays...not exactly the same, but not totally out of character.

Tom it's nice to see you posting pictures of your work and talking about what happens before you sand the braces.

Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic this time.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 1 2013 23:45:26

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to estebanana)

This guitar is being recorded with pictures at every stage of construction. This is something I've wanted to do for years but never got around to it. This picture is ready for the sides and top, now.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2013 2:32:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Violins and fiddles are the same instrument and if its a good instrument it works in all styles.

This has been a choice as I am sure you know. I think that the situation could be more similar in guitar but noone is prepared to accept a happy medium. David Russel has always said that the first thing to do to make a (classical) guitar sound better is to make it easy to play.

I´ve made a few "happy medium" guitars and I´ve liked them all. I call them hybrids and they are very versatile. If made with cypress back and sides they actually work well even in Jerez bulerias.

But its not us, the builders, who should accept that happy medium. We have to build what our clients want. And the Spanish guitar world is in general very divided into flamenco and classical.

At the same time, I have to admit that my personal choice, as a player, is a lightweight blanca. No classical crossover for me. So I understand the division.

I would love to go to the Shetlands, but before that, I will go to Ireland to learn to play reels, jigs, hornpipes etc. Then later on to Scotland to play Strathspeys and then later on the Shetlands... and maybe Orkneys as well. I wish real life was as easy as that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2013 7:34:31

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Just got a call saying that the Guitar I ordered from a Spanish factory and fine tuned was sold to Savage Music Company.

Here is the link: http://savageclassical.com/shop/category/blackshear/

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2013 22:49:15

Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Are you totally sure? There is a Reyes headstock I know of that is not unlike this one Tom displays...not exactly the same, but not totally out of character.

Your thinking of the Reyes design from the 60's like this one.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 2 2013 23:18:03

HolyEvil

Posts: 1240
Joined: Nov. 6 2008
From: Sydney, Australia

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Just got a call saying that the Guitar I ordered from a Spanish factory and fine tuned was sold to Savage Music Company.

Here is the link: http://savageclassical.com/shop/category/blackshear/

So you bought a guitar, tuned it and its being sold as one that is built by you?
Or do you actually put a different label on specify to buyers that it wasn't built by you?
Kind of like how eg Jose romero's guitars that are not build by him has a different label which says estudio and not signed etc?

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 0:04:38

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to HolyEvil)

The label specifically says made in Spain and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear with a different Blackshear label. Perhaps there will be some changes made but right now this is the first guitar with a fine tuned label, that states, made in Spain, and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear.

I understand that there are some well known *Spanish guitar houses that carry subcontractor guitars with the guitar house labels, with no indication they were subcontracted. This is fine with me but.......

My agreement with the factory and sales agent up front was that I would fine tune the voice of these guitars made to my specifications and under no circumstances would I release a guitar until its voice was acceptable to me.

And since my building out put has become slower after 53 years, I have decided to create other avenues of work to support my family, along with building my own instruments when I can; usually about 2 or 3 a year.

*This situation is similar to a guitar making house adding extra builders to their work schedule, but for one difference, subcontractors take that place without the house having to add too many extra expenses of additional workers under their roof.

I think with today's economy in the US we are going to see more added temp services, of all kinds, in operation than ever before.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 2:28:37

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

I think with today's economy in the US we are going to see more added temp services, of all kinds, in operation than ever before.

This means that already established builders can continue their business and that newcommers will have to close down.
Good for the business?

I hope you have enough fine feelings about luthiery and this forum, to stop advertising your finetuning business here. Its totally out of place. And I think its better that you draw the limit yourself and that its not something that someone else has to take care of.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 14:54:07

Tom Blackshear

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Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders, you are going to have to show the readers on this list that your way of doing business is the only way, and that my business is out of touch, when a variety of guitar houses, like Ramirez, Conde, Bernabe, et al, subcontract their models out to smaller and even larger factories to fill their quotas.

There are studio models as well as higher priced instruments that are made by these factories and no doubt some; even many of them are set up and fine tuned by the original sales houses. I know of some music companies here is the US that do this, So my idea is not new, just long in coming to fruition, concerning my building career.

This is certainly a legitimate way to do business in Spain and has been for many years. I would ask you to have mercy and not try and stop me from advertising my livelihood, as this is no different from anyone else who seeks to show or tell about his business. You have had years to promote your craft on this forum....

But your way is not the only way, my friend.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 15:48:49

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

tom, i did not see the guitars made by factory x and fine tuned in texas. do these guitars really exist?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 16:06:11

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

The label specifically says made in Spain and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear with a different Blackshear label.

Yeah in very lightly written ink that I had to do a hard zoom to see. Constructor de guitarras and your name in bold as with any luthier label is what's prevalent. The only thing that really tells what's going on here is the detailed description by Savage. Should that have been left out, not sure a buyer without previous knowledge would know there is a difference.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 16:14:07

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to keith)

Kieth, the wording on Savage guitar website is a little off but still explanatory that the guitar was made in Spain and set up and tuned by me.

Comments:

This is a beautiful classical guitar with that bold in your face Spanish characteristic that amazes you until you hear that Tom Blackshear built it.

Actually, Tom has commissioned this guitar from a famous builder in Spain thru a collaborative effort of modeling and testing. Going thru various prototypes, using the best woods and materials possible,

Tom was finally satisfied that they had done an excellent job, one that he could put his name within. He then proceeded to set the guitar up and finish it to his specs. Thus, the revisited designation as seen in the label.

(The label reads "Made in Spain and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear), on a different Blackshear label from my regular labels. "This is not a studio model but a highly crafted model suited for professional use, etc."

Low action, superbly setup, very easy play, the guitar resonates against your body. The clear voicing, fat and round, warm with coloring, and the slightest bit of rasp of the guitar becomes evident when you push her a bit, mindful of the older recordings of the Spanish masters of years gone by. The balance is superb with a nice punch to the basses, a strong mid range, and a lilting sing to the trebles. Such a beauty of a classical guitar built by a gentleman luthier.

Kieth, if you can see a way to word this better then have at it, and I'll submit it to Rich Sayage for consideration. I'm sure he would be open to comments.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 16:20:22

Tom Blackshear

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

The label specifically says made in Spain and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear with a different Blackshear label.

Yeah in very lightly written ink that I had to do a hard zoom to see. Constructor de guitarras and your name in bold as with any luthier label is what's prevalent. The only thing that really tells what's going on here is the detailed description by Savage. Should that have been left out, not sure a buyer without previous knowledge would know there is a difference.

Actually, the label is written in ink, made in Spain, at the top, then the label reads:

constructor of guitars
Tom Blackshear

And then written in ink "fine tuned by Tom Blackshear."

But the label is not set in concrete, anymore than the comments made by Rich Sayage, so if you care to suggest a better way, let me know and I'll present your suggestion to Rich for consideration.

Obviously, this is the start of an ongoing progression with trying to get everything in order to sell these models..

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 16:36:53

tri7/5

Posts: 570
Joined: May 5 2012

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dyingsea

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

The label specifically says made in Spain and fine tuned by Tom Blackshear with a different Blackshear label.

Yeah in very lightly written ink that I had to do a hard zoom to see. Constructor de guitarras and your name in bold as with any luthier label is what's prevalent. The only thing that really tells what's going on here is the detailed description by Savage. Should that have been left out, not sure a buyer without previous knowledge would know there is a difference.

Actually, the label is written in ink, made in Spain, at the top, then the label reads:

constructor of guitars
Tom Blackshear

And then written in ink "fine tuned by Tom Blackshear."

But the label is not set in concrete, anymore than the comments made by Rich Sayage, so if you care to suggest a better way, let me know and I'll present your suggestion to Rich for consideration.

Obviously, this is the start of an ongoing progression with trying to get everything in order to sell these models..

It's up to you how you run your business but to me that is what this is a "model". Maybe a "2a" or something so it delineates the fact that it's outsourced on the build and your website advertises this model as such so there is a line in the sand for potential buyers to see. I personally like to avoid the smoke and mirrors marketing built by X but labeled as X that seems to plague some Spanish guitars and know who actually was involved in the build but again that's just my opinion.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 17:15:42

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

This is not a 2A guitar. This is just fake and smoke.

If TomB is going to be allowed to spam this section with his personally fine tuned Spanish made factory guitars, then I might have to leave the foro. I have my limits .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 17:29:48

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Don't ever say that you have your limits, Anders, as your guitar making abilities are destined to be quite creative in an ongoing pursuit of a wonderful craft/art.

I think there is enough room, for much creative spirit on this list, without throwing darts at each other.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 17:41:34

Tom Blackshear

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RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to tri7/5)

quote:

I personally like to avoid the smoke and mirrors marketing built by X but labeled as X that seems to plague some Spanish guitars and know who actually was involved in the build but again that's just my opinion.

Well, its obvious that the guitar was built in Spain and fine tuned by me. Perhaps there is a way to label it more specifically. What do you think?

There's no way the builder's name can be used, as that is proprietary, but what do you think about "Made in Spain for the shop of Tom Blackshear." and then have short mention of being finely tuned by Tom Blackshear, on the label, with a much more extensive explanation on my website?

The website could be worded to express that the Spanish factory built the guitar to my exact specifications, with my added work fine tuning the guitar.

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Tom Blackshear Guitar maker

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 17:53:38

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

For me, the issue is the price. I hope I do not offend you Mr. Blackshear. Not my intention and I in no way am anyone to tell you what you should charge. I just think an 8k price tag is high for a guitar not built by the maker. For this price, I would expect to see the maker's name on the label. If I am not mistaken, a guitar built by you is not that much more correct? so why would I pay this for a guitar built by a factory instead of your hands? Unless the price I saw on the link you posted were for your guitars and not the factory built ones.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 20:30:06

keith

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From: Back in Boston

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

made in spain by ?? and then fine tuned in texas? oh come on, why not just say blackshear estudio or something to that effect. brune did it with asturias guitars and those guitars are well revered. ramirez has done it with success.

why not a label that says: built for tom blackshear and then fine tuned by blackshear? as the label reads it does appear you went to spain to make the guitar.

by the way, i did not see a price for this guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 20:53:12

Leñador

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From: Los Angeles

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

If you read the description of the one that's not sold, it says something about a collaborative effort with a builder in Spain and himself, definitely don't see the word factory anywhere though................

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\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 21:02:44

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

Actually, the label is written in ink, made in Spain, at the top, then the label reads:

constructor of guitars
Tom Blackshear

And then written in ink "fine tuned by Tom Blackshear."

But the label is not set in concrete, anymore than the comments made by Rich Sayage, so if you care to suggest a better way, let me know and I'll present your suggestion to Rich for consideration.

Obviously, this is the start of an ongoing progression with trying to get everything in order to sell these models..

I just read this post for the first time today... the fighting got my attention.

Yeah, that label text means nothing. This is akin to andalucian guitars isn't it. My first reaction would be to stay away, especially at that price, and even if it was $1k. I don't know who buys gutars like this for $8k, maybe it's the free shipping. In any case you have more business sense than I do (I know I don't have much of it), and business-wise, congratulations on exploiting this segment.
What does fine tuning mean, what do you do? Did I miss the description in the post?

Anders, and I am sincere, (and it is none of my business) you should relax and use Mr. Blackshear as one of your personal goals to reach a 'higher state of mind' (don't know how to put it) and just let it go; to one day, be able to read this stuff and completely not care, breath faster, or get a hot flash. In the big scheme of things, and in your personal life, does all this really matter...
Really don't want to offend, but I dealt with that type of thing on another subject and it has changed my life for the better (in my case it was part of my daily life).

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 21:36:56

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: FINE TUNING A GUITAR (in reply to Tom Blackshear)

quote:

There's no way the builder's name can be used, as that is proprietary

Therein lies a problem, for me. I would want to know about the luthier. If the price is in the many thousands, why would a decent luthier stay nameless? Happy to consider a Bernal 'made under supervision' for £500-£1000 but one of unknown provenance, made to a plan, I assume and exported to the US for 'fine-tuning' is horse of many colours.

I value highly the conversations with the luthier before construction, during construction and after construction. That is not particularly expensive, even in these tough times.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 3 2013 21:43:28