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Posts: 113
Joined: Jan. 11 2012
From: Bay Area- CA
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Guest)
I have faith in Vicente... I'm sure he'll come out with a solid flamenco album within the next couple years. Maybe he wanted to explore a more mainstream genre of music.....who knows
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to britguy)
quote:
I do the same thing and I'm only 49, I can't imagine what a grouchy & dirty old bastard I'll be when I'm 81....
Carry on young Jedi of the Wind
The great thing about 80 is you've beaten the odds and anything more is gravy. The down side is your hearing is crap. I remember at 17 hearing a Segovia recording with probably more than he could hear at his age and being left in a trance. That's the worst of it. I remember reading about Pete Townsend and his campaign to lower the volume at rock concerts because he had young children and his hearing was so poor he couldn't understand their high pitched voices. It doesn't take long for one's hearing to fall to 8000 cycles.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to lukeofgod)
quote:
ORIGINAL: lukeofgod
I have faith in Vicente... I'm sure he'll come out with a solid flamenco album within the next couple years. Maybe he wanted to explore a more mainstream genre of music.....who knows
I dont think its mainstream type of music and its always good to hear something new. Its the first of its kind. I dont think its any less good than his other albums.
I keep only two flamenco guitars and will not accept any more, partially because I cant afford any more but more because I dont need any more. So its either a blanca or a negra for me.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
I do the same thing and I'm only 49, I can't imagine what a grouchy & dirty old bastard I'll be when I'm 81....
Carry on young Jedi of the Wind
The great thing about 80 is you've beaten the odds and anything more is gravy. The down side is your hearing is crap. I remember at 17 hearing a Segovia recording with probably more than he could hear at his age and being left in a trance. That's the worst of it. I remember reading about Pete Townsend and his campaign to lower the volume at rock concerts because he had young children and his hearing was so poor he couldn't understand their high pitched voices. It doesn't take long for one's hearing to fall to 8000 cycles.
Might have been my 80-90 year old great grandpa I don't remember but heard the story, he thought he was almost deaf and went to the doctor and they cleaned tons of wax out of his ears and he could hear perfect!
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Might have been my 80-90 year old great grandpa I don't remember but heard the story, he thought he was almost deaf and went to the doctor and they cleaned tons of wax out of his ears and he could hear perfect!
No I can grantee that it doesn't work that way at all. When I was 50 I slammed the door on my car and my ears began to ring. That was 30 years ago and it hasn't left me yet. The first thing I did was go to my GP who cleaned out the wax from my ears with no improvement.. Believe you me your hearing does deteriorate quickly over time. A while back British store owners installed a high frequency sound device (18000cycles) to drive off the teens who were harassing (so they said) honest people. An 18 yo can hear up to 18.000 cycles while no one else much older can. They said it was like mosquitoes buzzing but only a teen could hear it.. If you live long enough you will reach the point when you find it very difficult to understand speech of even those closes to you. There are hearing devices but I just don't want to admit to that stage of my life..It's the overtones which can reach up to 20000cycles but you may think your hearing is acute but if you are over 30 for sure you are missing a lot.
Flamenco is not about nuance and that makes the difference.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
In which connection: something that made me roar with laughter was Ella Fitzgerald doing the “Is it live or it is Memorex?” ad.
If they wanted to be plausible, they should have got an eight-year-old.
Yeah I remember that ad. The stereo crowd put out test records that gave a series of sounds of increasing frequency to judge ones acuity. .It's not until one's hearing gets so bad that they can't understand someone talking to them that it sinks in what they are missing. As I said not so bad with flamenco as nuance is really not their bag. Someone thrashing away on a guitar does not begin to approach the coloration of Segovia. Duck and run for cover.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
As I said not so bad with flamenco as nuance is really not their bag. Someone thrashing away on a guitar does not begin to approach the coloration of Segovia
Have you heard any flamenco other then Carlos Montoya's solo stuff???????
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
Believe you me your hearing does deteriorate quickly over time.
You don't have to tell me, old buddy. I'm 78 1/2, not quite up to you yet, but getting there.
I've had hearing problems most of my life. The audiologists always thought it was due to the constant night bombing and gunfire (Birmingham area) in 1940-41, etc.
I had to give trying to play violin because I couldn't play in tune. My left ear has been almost totally deaf since childhood - was always a big problem in busines meetings, etc.
But. . . a few years ago (maybe 5 or so) I went to another audiologist who fitted me with a modern programmable hi-tech hearing aid that vastly improved my upper-register hearing. I noticed an immediate and dramatic improvement in hearing the guitar - the higher notes sound much clearer and brighter, and very natural sound, not 'tinny' like some others I had tried. It swas almost like listening to a different instrument. . .
Now I can actually enjoy listening to myself playing ( miserable as it may be?) whereas previously my playing always sounded 'flat' and 'fluffy'. Lacking in clarity and definition. I can also hear all music much better than before. I don't need to wear it all the time, but when I do it helps a lot.
Bottom line: maybe younger guitarists might also benefit from wearing a hearing aid at times. Some are almost invisible, and far less conspicuous than those little telephone things some guys have sticking out of their ear these days?
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
As I said not so bad with flamenco as nuance is really not their bag. Someone thrashing away on a guitar does not begin to approach the coloration of Segovia. Duck and run for cover.
Ok turn up the volume I am only gonna say this once...err....never mind.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
I do love VA and his sound. But when Segovia was at his peak selling tons of LPs, someone in a guitar journal analyzed one of his pieces, a slight thing by Fernando Sor, and found every note had been carefully considered as to color, dynamics and relation to the concept. It was so simple a piece anyone could play it. But to make it sound like music takes genius. Upon his death, there were many articles written by those who had interviewed him and one I remember , related how he mentioned to Segovia that he played the guitar, and Segovia handed him his great Hauser and commanded him to play. Upon which Segovia mustering his best Olympian manner, gravely announced: You play the notes, but you don't make the music.
If you have your hearing tested, I would bet money, you can't hear much over 8000 cycles. When the ringing in my ears started (it has not let up even for a nano second) I had a barrage of tests done including x-rays and audio tests and at the end was shown a graph and the line fell of the chart at 8000.
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
I do love VA and his sound. But when Segovia was at his peak selling tons of LPs, someone in a guitar journal analyzed one of his pieces, a slight thing by Fernando Sor, and found every note had been carefully considered as to color, dynamics and relation to the concept. It was so simple a piece anyone could play it. But to make it sound like music takes genius. Upon his death, there were many articles written by those who had interviewed him and one I remember , related how he mentioned to Segovia that he played the guitar, and Segovia handed him his great Hauser and commanded him to play. Upon which Segovia mustering his best Olympian manner, gravely announced: You play the notes, but you don't make the music.
If you have your hearing tested, I would bet money, you can't hear much over 8000 cycles. When the ringing in my ears started (it has not let up even for a nano second) I had a barrage of tests done including x-rays and audio tests and at the end was shown a graph and the line fell of the chart at 8000.
dogs hear higher frequencies and nuance we can't percieve, but they SUCK as musicians. Having a musical ear is something else. Obviously.
Hear (pun intended), this lady can't hear a damn thing, but has better timing and musicality than segovia and scores of other guitarists:
Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
ORIGINAL: aeolus
quote:
but has better timing and musicality than segovia
You can't be serious. Apparently you have no concept of nuance on the guitar.
NUANCE
: a subtle distinction or variation
I am not going to shoot down your hero, but he simply describing the scope of the guitar sounds in general for complete lay people. You act as if he invent playing a melody on a different string or close to the bridge vs sound hole. "OMG nuance!"
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
Yeah, but how many flamencos do this. Few indeed as they are not playing structured compositions. There is no architecture to the compositions It not much more than doodling. A borrowed falseta here, a rasgueado there. It is fantastic in support of the cantante, other wise... boring! In other words the nuances that make up a classical composition are not part of the flamenco scene and to listen to a flamenco guitarist will not provide the sound world as described by Segovia. But it's apples and oranges.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
We are dealing with objective reality. Music as played by classical guitarists from the scores of composers educated in the field of composition and flamenco as composed and played by the players themselves. My point being that in a juerga the nuance and subtly of the classical has no place. And as a result the performance in the juerga lacks the depth of expression to hold ones attentions isolated from the festivities.. It quickly becomes boring lacking architecture and nuance...
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
There is no architecture to the compositions It not much more than doodling.
um..... there's a guy you may not have heard of, he's been around for a little while, he's more or less spent his entire life and career expanding the vocabulary of the flamenco guitar. As well as being a virtuoso performer he is also something of a compositional genius.
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
um..... there's a guy you may not have heard of, he's been around for a little while, he's more or less spent his entire life and career expanding the vocabulary of the flamenco guitar. As well as being a virtuoso performer he is also something of a compositional genius.
So? Who is the mystery man and which of his compositions have been played by leading orchestras. Joaquín Rodrigo? Manuel de Falla?
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
Yeah, but how many flamencos do this. Few indeed as they are not playing structured compositions. There is no architecture to the compositions It not much more than doodling. A borrowed falseta here, a rasgueado there. It is fantastic in support of the cantante, other wise... boring! In other words the nuances that make up a classical composition are not part of the flamenco scene and to listen to a flamenco guitarist will not provide the sound world as described by Segovia. But it's apples and oranges.
Thank you for this post, Aelus: it makes me realize how much more I understand and appreciate Flamenco than I would ever give myself credit for.
As David Hume puts it,
“All sentiment is right; because sentiment has a reference to nothing beyond itself.
But all determinations of the understanding are not right; because they have a reference to something beyond themselves, to wit, real matter of fact; and are not always conformable to that standard.”
Which, through a few and simple syllogistic steps, leads to an obvious conclusion: If [for instance] you employ Bach's compositions as the standard to judge or appreciate Flamenco, you are expressing little more than your own sentiment, which we can all respect and accept as such. But if you arrogate that 'holier-than-thou' approach, to condemn Flamenco 'as a matter of fact', we will .... politely ignore you opinion which, incidentally, scarcely belong on this Foro 'Flamenco'
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
scarcely belong on this Foro 'Flamenco'
So, the high priest has spoken. My point was to repeat, that flamenco guitar has no valid existence outside of a juerga and the idea of a solo album divorced from the cante consisting of the dull repletion of simple falsetas dooms the project from the start. But as you have declared such heretical ideas as unworthy of this august forum. I withdraw my comments.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to aeolus)
quote:
So, the high priest has spoken.
Nice try... that was you, really. You do not have to delete your comments, but tone them down a notch, with a dash of healthy humility, or even the benefit of doubt that [here] we are not all ignorant and deaf. This addition [not deletion] would go a long way.
Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)
RE: "Which guitar do I play tod... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
It's not as though Vicente is at fault...it's just silly to me that out of ALL of vicente's magnificent contributions to flamenco guitar this ROMA song has gotten SO much attention.
Probably because of the same reason why from all Paco's contributions, entre dos aguas got the most attention (of course excluding those picado parts, alzapua parts, and some other parts..... which are just all too noisy and lack nuance)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
The album is an interesting fusion.
Agree. I liked it a lot. Somehow easy listening (at highest levels of course). And i liked the other instruments too, somehow matched this time (often times i personally don't like other instruments been mixed with flamenco).
Also don't know what we can expect from new albums anyway. So much has already been "covered" during the last 30,40 years, i mean you rarely hear any new falseta in newer CDs which is not familiar one way or another. Its really damn hard to come up with something totally new. And too many experiments can easily backfire and make the compositions leave the flamenco path too far away. I think even Paco might have a hard time with one of those revolutionary CDs. I don't want to say we have some kind of "compositional crises" but most of the "compositional virginity" is more or less lost (imo) :)
Also these guys need to make a living too and sell more CDs and concerts. Bad economy in spain too. If its too "noisy", then only guys like you and me buy them ;) - I think all in all it was a very nice album which serves the taste of all kind of people (including us). p.s. some amazing bulerias and tangos was in it too. And somehow i felt like Vicente's sound was even more emotional than it was already. This guy can play with a single note and make it dance, cry or whatever like no one else (of course his reyes helps too in this regard ;-).
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