[Deleted]

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

[Deleted]

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Guest

[Deleted]

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 15:53:46

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Very interesting indeed, thanks for posting :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 16:23:41

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1674
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

I think the people who value Strads over modern violins are the same people who thought Vincent van Gogh's work was terrible when he was alive and wonderful after he was dead. I don't think they can hear a difference (as I think blind tests have shown). Moreover the fungus probably attacked Strads long after they were made and was not the maker's intention.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:08:51

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

quote:

regarding the use of certain fungi to change the characteristics of wood

urine works better

_____________________________

Flamenco Guitar is a percussion instrument. Start acting like percussionists.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 18:14:55

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

What a lot of people seem to forget, or perhaps didn't know in the first place, is that practically every existing Stradivari violin (viola and cello) has undergone considerable modification over the years, not to mention repairs, restoration, etc. so that they sound very different than they did originally. With the exception of one large viola that originally was part of a set of instruments made for the Medici family and currently resides in a museum in Italy, they have all been considerably altered starting in the early 19th century to make them playable by and therefore useful to modern musicians.
The necks and fingerboards have been lengthened and cocked back, the internal structure beefed up, they are fitted with taller bridges and higher tension strings than they originally had along with different tailpieces, pegs and other fittings.
All this coupled with the numerous crack repair cleats, various patches, wood doubling, etc. that most of them have makes for instruments that are a far cry from what they were when they were made. Some of them have less than half of their original top wood remaining.
The current sound of a Stradivari violin probably has much more to do with the skill of the often unknown but highly skilled craftspeople who performed this work over the centuries than any silly nonsense about fungus, urine, magic varnishes, etc. Perhaps as much if not even more than Stradivari's original work.
One example that's currently in the Metropolitan Museum of Art's collection was more or less "built back" to late 17th century specs by a Swiss violin maker a number of years ago. It supposedly wasn't a particularly great specimen in its modern configuration and turned out to be even less impressive as an old style instrument.
Contrary to what we've been led to believe, largely by the violin dealers, not every Strad is a sonic masterpiece. Only a small percentage of the existing Stradivari instruments see any regular use. Most of them reside in museum display cases and bank vaults.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:08:06

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to C. Vega)

Ive heard about fingering, strapping, hanging and fisting a guitar but... is anyone really pissing on it?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:12:18

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

There is one crackpot "expert" out there, a retired biophysics professor named Joseph Nagyvary, who claims that one of Stradivari's secrets, among numerous other nonsensical things he's claimed to have "discovered" over the years, was that Stradivari used urine-soaked wood for his instruments.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:25:47

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:39:53

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Let's not forget the role of the player in the "Strad Sound". Most newbie guitar players can play a few pleasant sounding chords in a relatively short time. Getting a decent sound out of a violin takes a lot more work.
I've seen a good number of genuine Strads, handled a few and even played a bit on one of them. After my scratchy rendition of Percy Grainger's "Country Gardens" on the Strad the dealer, who happened to be a good friend of mine and was selling the violin on consignment, just shook his head and said "Well, that fiddle's never going to be the same."
But you could hand a violinist like Itzhak Perlman or Joshua Bell a strung up cigar box and a bow and they'd sound better playing it than I did playing that poor Strad.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 19:59:07

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

there is a thread at delcamp about this. apparently stopping the fungi is almost impossible without resorting to some serious chemical intervention--serious as in cancer, immediate death--that sort of thing. one of the poster's sister-in law allegedly works on the project and mentioned the difficulty in stopping the process.

just think of the possibilities for the luthier--first ethlyene oxide then nitro lacquer. say goodbye to brain cells galore and hello to that third ear growing on the back of the neck.

http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=76576

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 8 2013 22:01:39

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Shroomy starts a thread about fungus.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 0:21:44

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest)

[Deleted by Admins]

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 0:30:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Using mould and fungus has been and is being used in flamenco guitars.

I once visited a builder who claims to use 30 year old wood (no name) and saw his storrage.
It was in a humid semi-cellar with occasional water on the floor. The wood was stacked without pins and lots of it had mould and fungus on it. It all smelled pretty bad.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 7:50:13

keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders--Looks like that builder should invest in a Hazmat suit, super high speed fans, etc.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 12:50:57

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to C. Vega)

quote:

ORIGINAL: C. Vega

With the exception of one large viola that originally was part of a set of instruments made for the Medici family and currently resides in a museum in Italy, they have all been considerably altered starting in the early 19th century to make them playable by and therefore useful to modern musicians.

Are you referring to the one in the musical instrument collection at the Accademia in Florence? If so, I had a look at it last May, along with a violin and a 'celllo by Stradivari with similar decoration, at the same place.

Have the fiddle and the 'cello been extensively rebuilt? Do you know whether the viola ever gets played in public?

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 17:53:26

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Richard,
The instrument I was referring to is in Florence but I believe it's in the Instituto Cherubini...or at least it used to be.
There were apparently two violas in the Medici set, this one and one of more "normal" size. The big boy is an instrument also referred to as a tenore and has a body length of nearly 19 inches. You'd need gorilla arms to play it in the modern position.
It's entirely original except for the strings and has apparently only been opened on one occasion to repair some worm damage. It was essentially an obsolete instrument when it was made (1690) and therefore was played very little. Apparently no one ever felt the need to "modernize" it. I don't think that it's been played in public in many years.
As far as I know, the other remaining instruments from the same Medici set (there was more than one) have been modified. Those in the know seem to think that this set originally consisted of two or three violins, a smaller contralto viola, the big bruiser viola and a cello.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 18:08:25

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Using fungi to alter wood charac... (in reply to Guest)

Just to supplement what Vega said and explain how and why the viola changed.

Most of the pre 1750's viola have been cut down. They saw open the back and top seam and plane them until the width is reduced. Because the bouts are curved this also reduces the length automatically. If they does not reduce the length enough they trim a bit off the upper a lower bouts a re purffle and re shape the edges. The ribs get loosed at the tail and neck block and a bit gets cut off and then they reglue it so it fits the new outline, it all kind of happens together depending on the situation.

The roll of the viola changed quite a bit between 1580 and 1750. In the beginning they composer seldom called for them to be played out of first position, then gradually the stop, where the F note on the A string met the body needed to be shorter to play more difficult music with position shifts.

The same thing basically for the cello, they made them about 2 or 3" longer in the beginning and finally in the early 1700's got the idea of as 30 -31" back length as the right size. There a few makers who after that made a 28 1/2" or 29 " body.

Most of the older Italian violins have has lot of work done on them, but not always to the point of being unoriginal. Most of the time they are missing a lot of original varnish. It's pretty fascinating top look at lots of them and see if the scroll is original and things like that. When I was at the first violin shop in the early 80's I got to go to LA with my teacher and see all kinds of stuff at Louie Main's shop in Long Beach.

The first time Louie Main opened his vault and pulled out a violin he said this one is by the last of the Cremonese makers. I said "Storioni!" without a second of pause. He said "Very good you can now see anything you like. " Out came a Del Gesu....

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 9 2013 19:30:31