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Shroomy726

Posts: 1329
Joined: Jun. 5 2005
From: Argentina (living in U.S.)

Paco de Lucia's technique 

Hello all,

I was reading that Nino de Pura topic and there is a lot of talk there about different picados. Well, I think (as well as everyone here) that Paco is god when it comes to flamenco guitar. And so I was wondering if anyone actually knows how to use his technique for picados? I read somewhere that it is because of the position of his forearm and hand. But I have tried to play my picado this way and do not get the same result. If anyone knows his technique well, please post your knowledge on the subject. I dont think i am the only one trying to play his picado

Sincerely, Lionel
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2005 15:01:48
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Good luck !

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2005 19:13:52
 
Shroomy726

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From: Argentina (living in U.S.)

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

lol, thank you. I know I cant be as good as paco in this lifetime. I just want to get a feel of how he plays. I read all over this forum about Picado Staccatto. How do you make it staccatto?? Any inputs?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2005 19:23:08
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
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From: Scotland

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

I don't play any picado runs as such..like fast picado.
Recently I've been experimenting with combined thumb and picado work (which is much more important..since that's what carries the tune).
I am working on playing all rest stroke picado with thumb bass.
It was really awkward to begin with, but is beginning to work pretty well now and has a better sound.
I got the idea after the "Paco in Edinburgh" concert, when Niño Josele (during about the only bit of complicated stuff he played all night) turned to look at Paco for about a minute and I caught how he was playing from the side on angle.
Amazingly enough it was exactly always how I naturally wanted to play, but felt it was "wrong", looking at other players.
Other players seemed to curve their fingers and play "up".
I was quite surprised!
So there's a lesson for everybody!
It just involves resting the hand naturally across the strings and playing rest stroke picado and adapting the thumb to play the bass notes, no more.
I'm still working on it, so I'll let you know how I get on!

cheers

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2005 20:47:28
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726
I read all over this forum about Picado Staccatto. How do you make it staccatto??


Practice this slowly: when I plays the string, immediately move M onto the string to cut off the sound of the note. Then pluck with M and immediately move I onto the string to cut off the note, and so on.

Apart from training yourself to play staccato, it teaches your fingers to move efficiently - as soon as one finger has played the next is already prepared on the string.

For more info on this aproach, with practice drills etc, see Pumping Nylon by Scott Tenant (book or DVD).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 8:30:03
 
Doitsujin

Posts: 5063
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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Here some pics of Pacos picado technic of last year.


I think every persons anatomy is different, so I would never be able to play picado in pacos position, coz it wont work with my anatomy. I think its not good to force yourself playing exacly like Paco. Every person should find their own way to hold the hands. Maybe some have the same anatomy as Paco.


Piado from left and right:
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/9730/picadomigi7jf.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/5062/hidari9ai.jpg


2 mini-clips of paco doing picado from left side and right side:
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/6519/pacopicadovid18tb.gif
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/6940/pacopicadovid27ns.gif

Paco y Nino Josele
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7540/paco1dp.jpg
http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/6770/pacoynino0uh.jpg
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 11:07:51
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Oh no , when was that on tv? Why have i missed it ?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 12:28:20
 
rickm

 

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

my two cents, my classical teacher has taught me to play picado with stiff fingers, joints more or less locked, as he does. (he was schooled in Vienna and studied in New York with eliot fisk)
I notice Paco seems to use more finger bend, and have seen that with other flamenco players. comments?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 16:05:24
 
Doitsujin

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

I dont know when it was in tv. But the camera shwos a sighn sometimes. Its a jazzfestival in germany in 04. Im happy coz Jose Manuel Leon donated me the record *boast boast boast* hehe

To the fingerbend: The bend picado is called "flamenco-picado". But many professional players play with stiff-fingers, too. For example Paco Cepero plays the picado with very straight fingers and hes daaamn fast.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 21:38:53
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

I thought picado is "only" played with the second joint whereas normal classical rest stroke/apoyando is played with the large joint...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 26 2005 22:02:24
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus
I thought picado is "only" played with the second joint whereas normal classical rest stroke/apoyando is played with the large joint...


Here we go again....

There is no 'one way' to do picado and plenty of players play it from the large joint. Don't worry about how it looks, go for how it feels and sounds - which is the most effective way for you?

There is some debate over the extent to which people like Paco play from the second joint, and we've debated this many, many times on the foro.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 8:14:11
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

What you do, which technique you use and how you change it, all that is your thing (of course). So that was not my point. My point was that the term "picado" as a technical term means something like playing apoyando with the 2nd joint of i and m.
So i mean.. it cant be both; picado means either large OR 2nd joint. How much you change the standard into your own technique is a whole different story, and not so usefull to discuss IMO coz everybody has find that out on his OWN.

Phrygus, whos "stiff" apoyando is far slower than the flamenco-picado...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 11:21:16
 
Skai

 

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

In classical, power comes mainly from the knuckles but this doesn't mean that the rest of the joints should be stiff. Rather, they should be relaxed and bend slightly along with the movement of the knuckle joints.

As for picado, I believe in getting whatever sound you like. Would you prefer someone with great picado from the knuckles or someone with pathetic picado from the 2nd joint? The answer's obvious isn't it?

Cheston

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 11:59:25
Guest

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Its the angle of the stroke how the sound sounds. Not if you bend the fingers or not. Just the angle. You can produce exacly the same sound with bend fingers and staight fingers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 12:13:57
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to XXX

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phrygus
My point was that the term "picado" as a technical term means something like playing apoyando with the 2nd joint of i and m.


I see your point, but says who?

For me its more about sound - if picado is only that definition above, then all the dozens of flamenco players who don't play it like that aren't doing picado, so how useful is the definition? And where does that leave people like todd, whose picado sound more flamenco than some flamenco players I've heard?

Put 'picado' into a translator and you get 'it stung' which I think says a lot.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 12:14:31
 
Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to XXX

quote:

My point was that the term "picado" as a technical term means something like playing apoyando with the 2nd joint of i and m.


Phrygus,

If you, Paco de Lucia, or any other human being can play a fast picado from the 2nd joint I'd like to personally witness it. Paco's fingers may be bent, but believe me, he is still getting the movement from the large knuckle joint. I think this 2nd joint thing is a real misconception that a lot of people have.

Phil
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 12:43:26
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Jon, the word "picado" means so much in your vocabulary; this might be because of the fact that its used a lot and you got used to it. Picado is more a sound to you. Me too, but i also know that there is just this term picado, which is told to students of flamenco and described as above in order to get the students produce and understand it.

You know, it ends up in a definition thing. Todds playing is not picado. But he makes it sound like and he has even adjusted the picking technique to it in order to make it sound that way (with all this "stoping the string with thumb and i").


Phil,

did you notice how carefully i avoided to use the word "fast" in combination with my playing ;)
Its just so that i noticed that i can play better with picado than classical apoyando (and of course the sound is different and i like the picado sound more to be honest).
You dont really want to argue which technique is better, do you? This has to be found out by everyone personally...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2005 13:08:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11097
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From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

My computer is crazy right now and won't let me copy/paste, but I concur with Phil 100%!!! Phrygus you have some misconceptions about the technique and even the term itself. I recommend you get the video of Rito y Geografia del Toque, and this advice I extend to the guy who started this thread wondering about Paco's technique. You won't find more perfect filming of Paco's techniques at the exact right moments.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2005 2:57:41
 
Shroomy726

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2005 17:28:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11097
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

quote:

I noticed that Paco's little finger is tense too. Am i wrong?


You are wrong to think the pinky is so important, IMO. Paco has it straight out and a little tense looking at times. Vicente and Tomatito curl it up tightly. They are all fast as hell, with great sound. Manolo Sanlucar has the most "relaxed" looking hand/pinky I have seen and I would not say he is the fastest/cleanest in comparison. Stick with what is comfortable and easy to control with a good sound. Again, watch Rito y Geografia del toque and observe that there are so many different ways of doing the same thing, all with great results. I also recomend the new Encuentro video of Gerardo Nunez where he both discusses and demonstrates some of the different ways to hold your fingers when doing picado. Oscor Herrero shows you what he thinks is the right and "wrong" way to do techniques, which I don't get because he is not so great. Still, all these vids are a great source for learning.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 28 2005 20:46:11
 
Phil

Posts: 382
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Rota, Spain

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to XXX

quote:

You dont really want to argue which technique is better, do you? This has to be found out by everyone personally...


Phrygus,

Didn't mean to sound overly argumentative. I just happen to have a strong sarcastic streak in me that I have never been able to control. I've seen arguments on the forums about the "correct" way to play alzapua. Some insist that the movement has to come from only the wrist and others that it's just the thumb that should move. Another argument is whether you should put your middle and/or annular finger on the sound board for support when playing with the thumb. Since it is physically possible to execute these techniques either way and achieve the same effect, it really comes down to a matter of personal choice and physical capacity, and it's kind of silly to insist that one way or the other is the "correct" way. But in this case I'm not arguing that one way is better than the other. I'm saying that the 2nd knuckle picado technique doesn't even exist. I think this is a piece of misinformation that got circulated and has snowballed. I'm trying to imagine some poor beginner getting frustrated and pulling his hair out because he can't execute a technique that is physically almost impossible to do, although there may be somebody in the world that can do it. Whether you play picado with straight fingers or curved fingers is a matter of personal choice and, to some extent, you own physical makeup. But the primary movement is still generated by the 3rd joint (the big knuckle).

Phil

PS. I see that I have some heavy fire power on my side in this. Ricardo is one of the most knowledgeable Flamenco guitarists on this or any other forum. And, unlike me, he can actually play Flamenco guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2005 6:37:43
 
XXX

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Phil

Hey Phil,

well i dont know what Ricardo said or whether he said that there is no middle joint picado, which would be a weird opinion imo, coz you dont need to be expert to literally see that ther e is a difference between picado and classical apoyando.
Of course there is still some large joint movement, but the difference is clear.

quote:

The DVDs demonstrate a picado technique that will be familiar to fans of Paco De Lucia, with the stroke being powered almost exclusively from the middle finger joint.


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=12749&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil
I'm trying to imagine some poor beginner getting frustrated and pulling his hair out because he can't execute a technique that is physically almost impossible to do, although there may be somebody in the world that can do it.


EXACTLY the opposite goes for me. I was/am so happy having learned this picado, better sound and easier to play IMHO.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2005 8:15:15
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil
I'm saying that the 2nd knuckle picado technique doesn't even exist. I think this is a piece of misinformation that got circulated and has snowballed.


I'm with you all the way on the 'no correct way...' point, but the above comment is simpy untrue Phil. At least two of the best selling beginners' flamenco methods teach picado this way. Arguing whether it is effective or whether Paco plays like this is one thing, but denying its very existence is denying the existence of these books.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2005 8:43:55
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes
At least two of the best selling beginners' flamenco methods teach picado this way.


oops, my apologies Phil, I just checked my old copy of Juan Martin's El Arte book and I had this wrong - he teaches picado from the large knuckle.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2005 7:59:38
 
Phil

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From: Rota, Spain

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

Arguing whether it is effective or whether Paco plays like this is one thing, but denying its very existence is denying the existence of these books.


Jon,

Books can be wrong, but it's also possible (and probably very likely) that I am totally misinterpreting what Phrygus is describing. In other words, he might be describing one thing and I'm visualizing something completely different. If that's the case, then I apologize for being so hardheaded. This is one of those things that could probably be cleared up in about 30 seconds face to face. Maybe somebody could upload a video of a what I'll refer to as a "2nd Joint Picado." (No, that's not picado that you play after smoking your second joint).

Phil
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2005 21:37:59
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

Well its simple.

As the thread title says, we can uses PdLs technique as a basis. To me it is picado, or as you would say, 2nd joint picado.
Of course there is some large knuckle movement, but the main impulse comes from middle joint. Besides, my teacher and also Flamenco methods (Graf-Martinez,etc...) teach it with least large knuckle movement possible. But the reason why there is still some large knuckle movement lies in the anatomy, at least in my case, coz its hardly possible to exclude it. This may have its reasons in evolution, since our fingers got used to a certain movement procedure and the very most of our finger/hand movements include large AND middle joint.

A good example to prove this would also be the little joint. I think its clear now what i wanted to say :) (phew, ive got serious probs keeping it short! )

Anyway, this is not THAT important imho. The only important thing is the sound, and the sound changes with the stroke. However, it is important or it can be helpfull to know how to do this i.e. which possibilities there are and for my person the 2nd joint stroke sounds much harder, more flamencoish if you want, than the classical apoyando with more large knuckle movement.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2005 0:14:14
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Phil

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phil
Maybe somebody could upload a video of a what I'll refer to as a "2nd Joint Picado." (No, that's not picado that you play after smoking your second joint).


Actually, that would be entertaining to watch as well, Phil

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2005 8:18:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11097
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to XXX

quote:

Well its simple.

As the thread title says, we can uses PdLs technique as a basis. To me it is picado, or as you would say, 2nd joint picado.
Of course there is some large knuckle movement, but the main impulse comes from middle joint. Besides, my teacher and also Flamenco methods (Graf-Martinez,etc...) teach it with least large knuckle movement possible. But the reason why there is still some large knuckle movement lies in the anatomy, at least in my case, coz its hardly possible to exclude it. This may have its reasons in evolution, since our fingers got used to a certain movement procedure and the very most of our finger/hand movements include large AND middle joint.

A good example to prove this would also be the little joint. I think its clear now what i wanted to say :) (phew, ive got serious probs keeping it short! )

Anyway, this is not THAT important imho. The only important thing is the sound, and the sound changes with the stroke. However, it is important or it can be helpfull to know how to do this i.e. which possibilities there are and for my person the 2nd joint stroke sounds much harder, more flamencoish if you want, than the classical apoyando with more large knuckle movement.


Well, I say no. There are differences in expressing sound with ALL the similar RH techniques that classical and flamenco guitar share. Classical apoyando is not picado, true, but pulgar is different soundwise too, as is tremolo, and even arpeggio. Read up on the Aaron Shear method and you see he teaches begginners to play apoyando from the middle knuckle, keep the big joint stiff. The only way to do this as is explained, is by allowing the tip joint to flex. The result is NOT anything like flamenco picado, nor is it meant to be. Could you do picado like this? Yes. Can you go fast? Not really. Does PDL do this? NO. His fingers move as a unit from the big joint, even though the middle knuckle is slightly bent (the medio finger bends more than the index, so the tips are more even length, making string crossings more comfortable). His tip joint does not flex. Check out the side shots in Rito y Geografia and slow it down if you need to, it is quite clear. Big knuckle powers it. I tried the Aaron Shear technique very briefly in college. I equate it to picking style. With a thin floppy pick you don't have the same control over speed and tone as you do with a harder pick.

The best anology to get a feel for the difference was done a while back by Jon maybe. Moving from the 2nd knuckle feels like scratching on the table, without lifting off, where as big joint moving is like tapping on the table.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2005 6:11:13
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The only way to do this as is explained, is by allowing the tip joint to flex. The result is NOT anything like flamenco picado, nor is it meant to be.


Yet both Vicente Amigo and Tomatito do this i.e. the tip joint hyperextends ('gives' to the pressure of the string and bends backwards) when they play picado. You can see this in Tomatitos Encuentro video and in Vicente's live video.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2005 12:29:06
 
Patrick

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Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: Paco de Lucia's technique (in reply to Shroomy726

quote:

Yet both Vicente Amigo and Tomatito do this i.e. the tip joint hyperextends ('gives' to the pressure of the string and bends backwards) when they play picado. You can see this in Tomatitos Encuentro video and in Vicente's live video.


Jon,

Yes they do, but I will put a hundred dollar bill on the table that says the main power and force still comes from the large knuckle, not from the middle joint. You can see the same thing in Herrero videos, but the main power is still from the large knuckle as well.

I think they are just playing in a very relaxed fashion that allows the tip to flex back; giving the illusion the stroke is from the second joint. I’m not saying it can’t be done. I just don’t think it’s a prevalent as we may think.

Pat
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2005 18:58:02
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