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RE: Manuel Molina
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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 RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I think fatty and fatso are bad translations. In english it's derogatory but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".
It's just as demeaning in Spanish as in English...no woman likes being called "fatso", and it sets a clear precedent of disrespect. It's a Spanish cultural thing to make fun of physical defects or problems...guitarist Perico del Lunar, (Little Pedro of the Mole) had his mole removed, but people made sure to perpetuate the name...singer Gordito de Triana (Triana Fats) was so thin as to be ugly, so people gave him the cruelest nickname...other flamenco nicknames include El Caca (Piece of Poop), el Falo (the Phallus), Aurelio El Tuerto (One-Eyed Aurelio) or a guitarist here in Jerez called Seis Dedos (Six Fingers, since that's what he's got on his left hand, and no, he does not play amazing chords).
When I moved to Spain forty years ago I was appalled at how retarded people or children with Down's were made fun of, but I haven't seen that in a long time except among the lowest classes.
I helped Tao with the subtitles, but could find no credible way to avoid "fatty". If I'd thought it was an endearing term I could have suggested "darling" or "sweetheart", but an inner voice told me that would deform the intent.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Mar. 28 2013 9:30:31
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Ricardo
Posts: 14799
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to zata)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
quote:
I think fatty and fatso are bad translations. In english it's derogatory but in spanish it is quite endearing to call a woman you like or love "gordita".
It's just as demeaning in Spanish as in English...no woman likes being called "fatso", and it sets a clear precedent of disrespect. It's a Spanish cultural thing to make fun of physical defects or problems...guitarist Perico del Lunar, (Little Pedro of the Mole) had his mole removed, but people made sure to perpetuate the name...singer Gordito de Triana (Triana Fats) was so thin as to be ugly, so people gave him the cruelest nickname...other flamenco nicknames include El Caca (Piece of Poop), el Falo (the Phallus), Aurelio El Tuerto (One-Eyed Aurelio) or a guitarist here in Jerez called Seis Dedos (Six Fingers, since that's what he's got on his left hand, and no, he does not play amazing chords).
When I moved to Spain forty years ago I was appalled at how retarded people or children with Down's were made fun of, but I haven't seen that in a long time except among the lowest classes.
I helped Tao with the subtitles, but could find no credible way to avoid "fatty". If I'd thought it was an endearing term I could have suggested "darling" or "sweetheart", but an inner voice told me that would deform the intent.
Well my spanish speaking friends say it all the time to very good friends and loved ones that are heavy, and it is no harm intended, infact the opposite, a lot of love and respect there. To do the same to any english speaking friends or relatives in english would be very disrespectful only causing bad feelings or worse to get ostrisize or invoke a fight. I understand the need to translate something for what he says, but in english it sounds like he wants to put her down for being overweight, yet I know darn well what he means and how much he cares for her and has no problem with how she looks. "my corpulent beauty..." or something is closer. 
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Date Mar. 28 2013 18:34:58
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to kudo)
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I have spent a lot of time around Mexicans. My experience is they rib each other and call each other names mercilessly. The most common word in a kitchen with a lot of Mexicans is "way" (sounds like that, at least), which seems to be used something like "dummy" or "chump". You'll also hear "cabrooooon", often extended like that. If someone's fat, he's panzon, if someone's bald, his nickname is pelon. Any person of Asian descent or who even looks like it is Chino.
However make sure you don't call people "way" indescriminately; you have to be at a certain level of friendship or it's an insult. I stepped over the line calling a chef "Bernaco" (Bernardo was his name, "naco" means something like white trash for Mexicans). He used to call me "Orgullo Latino", as a joke because I play Latin music even though I'm not of Latino descent. Keep in mind a lot of this must be lower class mannerisms and locker room talk, and not proper for formal circumstances. It is entirely possible that Manuel's way of talking to his wife is acceptable in his area, but not politically correct or legitimately insulting for middle class or upper class people.
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Date Mar. 29 2013 14:22:34
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machopicasso
Posts: 973
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
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RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
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quote:
My experience is they rib each other and call each other names mercilessly...If someone's fat, he's panzon, if someone's bald, his nickname is pelon
Ah, that explains it. Years ago, I was walking -- gringo with a shaved head -- through Managua, Nicaragua, and passed a family of three. Their son, who was like 8 or 9 years old, said, "Hola, pelon." I was slightly surprised by that. But I was more surprised at the reaction of his parents. Instead of chastising him for his rude behavior (as my parents would've done), they laughed!
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Date Mar. 30 2013 9:23:19
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to machopicasso)
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The verse in question, “She’s my girlfriend, my woman, my lover, my friend, my little girl, my teacher…she’s not my mother”, is incompatible with “Big Momma” (which also sounds a little comical in my opinion). Translation cannot be taken out of context.
Furthermore, don’t confuse a shared language with shared cultural customs. In Spain we do not eat spicy food or wear big hats with pom-poms. I can’t speak for Latin America, but in Spain, derogatory nicknames are a cultural tradition among the lower classes. For this reason an overweight woman will not protest being called “gordita”, although she would surely prefer something nicer.
Times change. I just translated a Paco de Lucía interview from 1986 <http://www.deflamenco.com/revista/entrevistas/paco-de-lucia-interviewed-in-1986-1.html> in which he says some very demeaning things about women I’m sure he wouldn’t want to repeat now. In a few years Spanish men will no longer call their wives “my woman” or “gordita”.
It’s not the translator’s job to second-guess, forgive or cover up. “Fatty” was deemed kinder than “fatso”, and given the circumstances, is the best translation. Others can decide whether there is any ill intent.
Footnote: I have an obese friend who is a cantaor, and he has an unwieldy first name that doesn’t lend itself to any obvious nickname. When I once asked what to call him he said “my friends just call me ‘Gordo’” (Fats). There was a faint smile, but he looked so ashamed I wished I’d never asked.
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www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Mar. 30 2013 10:27:00
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Miguel de Maria
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
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RE: Manuel Molina (in reply to Escribano)
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Thanks, Simon, I used to know how to spell it. :) I heard one of our piano movers, who was Columbian, explaining to his gringo partner that it was buey, ox, but it didn't seem to make sense with how I've heard it and the way the guys would use it. I used to love learning the slang, because it contrasted to much with the antiseptic "Hola, Juan! Me llamo Mike!" stuff from school.
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Arizona Wedding Music Guitar
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Date Mar. 30 2013 14:22:52
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