Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros and Ben Woods who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





[Deleted]   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 4 [5]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to profundo

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 12:59:42
 
richard

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Jul. 27 2005
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

Perhaps he's right, maybe profundo he can post a video of himself playing to show us what duende is,
I've always thought Grisha has it but I could be wrong.

rICHARD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

quote:

ORIGINAL: profundo

becomening better but still not much duende.


You need to seriously LISTEN. You must be deaf or something.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 14:06:24
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

quote:

ORIGINAL: profundo

becomening better but still not much duende.


You need to seriously LISTEN. You must be deaf or something.



Grisha has a right hand style that gets him there although he has an unorthodox technique for traditional flamenco. I'd like to see him tighten it up a little but the proof of his talent comes through loud and clear, with all the great musicians music he plays. This is a great accomplishment in itself.

But attaining duende is as much an issue of sight, as it is with sound. And impatient virtuoso will lose any chance to receive it by trying to induce it in a mechanical way. This is why we wait for the moving of the duende not try and command it to happen.

We do what we do, and if it happens...fine, or if it doesn't happen, we still remain musically connected to the tradition.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 14:10:07
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

The word duende is like "je ne sais quoi", a great way to be a hater without having to pin point an actual problem.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 14:33:29
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Tom Blackshear

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 18:16:51
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

quote:


Second of all, some describe duende as: "Tó' lo que tiene soni'os negros tiene duende"


Duende is something you can't explain. You either have it or you don't. Its either there or it isn't. It either arrives or it doesn't.

One day I delivered a guitar, my first try at a 1973 Romanillos but with a few different adjustments with certain fan brace thickness, to *Jerry Klickstein to try out.

As he got into playing the guitar, I was looking out the window into the afternoon sun going down and all of a sudden it happened, duende. Sight and sound.

*Jerry Klickstein http://musiciansway.com/blog/tag/gerald-klickstein/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 20:31:20
 
aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

I find a quantity of good red wine goes a long way in experiencing duende
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 11 2013 21:47:46
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Guest

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2013 13:01:39
 
guitarbuddha

 

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

Maybe it is just because I am getting older but I find myself invoking the word Duende whenever I want to recycle an unconvincing anecdote in a way which tries to sell boastfullness as spirituality.

It is much the same when, in long and boring posts, I attempt to appropriate the wisdom of a celebrated literary or political figure because that makes me seem smarter than my own ideas would. Even if I clearly did not understand the quotes myself, duende means being profound in a way which renders self-awareness irrelevant.

And let us not forget about duende and age. Playing with bad compas in the sixties with uncontrolled clumsy technique = duende. Having a great controlled and individual technique in the twenty first century = duende not possible.

A common misconception of duende is that it is the hardest thing for a North European or American to understand. Yet time and time again people who understand nothing else, cant play and have cloth ears discuss it commandingly.

Whether you are marketing yourself to credulous hasbeens or trying to capitalise on their prejudices a firm knowledge of duende is vital.

All Grisha can do is command absolutely the respect and admiration of every IMPROVING guitarist who ever sees or hears him and hold electrically the attention of auditoriums full of non-afficianados throhought the world for hours at a time. Whats so special about that ?

I remember one day sitting on the Moon with General Macarthur drinking angel blood reading my ( recently published in Spanish) translation of Alexander Popes Aphorisms to Sabicas as he improvised. Twenty three hours later exhausted and with bleeding hands Sabicas vowed that he had never felt the duende so. Then, in tears, he licked my balls.

Of course if you are under sixty you will understand none of this. I certainly don't but then I'm only 41.



  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 12 2013 13:52:31
 
chester

Posts: 845
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to profundo

quote:

ORIGINAL: profundo

becomening better but still not much duende.

You should be ashamed of yourself!

The man has dedicated his life to studying music and is gracious enough to share his videos and advice with people on this forum, and you're insulting him?!? With the worst piece of non-constructive, condescending criticism there is? Didn't your mother teach you that if you have nothing good to say, you're better off staying quiet?

I can understand if the material isn't your cup of tea, but watch the videos again and tell me if Grisha isn't completely honest in his playing.

That said - if your post is meant to be an ironic joke in reference to your username, then it's pretty clever.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 13 2013 23:31:25

ToddK

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 6 2004
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to chester

quote:

You should be ashamed of yourself!

The man has dedicated his life to studying music and is gracious enough to share his videos and advice with people on this forum, and you're insulting him?!? With the worst piece of non-constructive, condescending criticism there is? Didn't your mother teach you that if you have nothing good to say, you're better off staying quiet?

I can understand if the material isn't your cup of tea, but watch the videos again and tell me if Grisha isn't completely honest in his playing.

That said - if your post is meant to be an ironic joke in reference to your username, then it's pretty clever.


Love it when somebody says what we're all thinking. Thanks Chester..

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 5:48:46
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to ToddK

I think there are those who look through the window from the outside and try to imagine what it would be like to actually be on the inside of talented and amusing exploits with the arts.

But true duende can't be experienced by one person alone. It takes more than one person to become one..... a compound unity of one. And this is possible by being open and sensitive to the reality of being one in thought and in deed.

In other words, no man is an island. When two or more people are gathered together and become one with the music, then duende can happen.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 14:18:03
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

n other words, no man is an island. When two or more people are gathered together and become one with the music, then duende can happen


Cruel Rule
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 15:10:50
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Tom, this is either mumbo or jumbo, or even both.

So, Stevie Wonder, or anyone with their eyes closed is denied duende? B o l l o c k s thrice squared.

But, no need to speculate. Why don't we test it, scientifically? All we need to do is get the universe to split into infinite copies of itself then analyze every interaction. It'll be easy. We don't even have to do it down to the subatomic level, we could do it the level of life and save a lot of computing time.

Of course, you'll have to build the gadget that does the splitting. Maybe one of the luthiers can build a jig to help out? Can we get a proper definition so we don't miss it though? Needs eyes and more than one person. Both with open eyes or is the presence of someone enough to allow it to happen to one person and not the other? But these are trifling details. So, it comes about once every 35 years? No sweat, we can run the experiment for say, a couple of million years or so.

If I didn't feel duende every time I play the guitar, I wouldn't do it. (of course, this isn't proper duende, it's more like spankin the duende.)

And lay off Grisha's technique. Classical indeed. I think not. Grisha is a unique proposition; he's writing his own chapters. Don't be fooled by your eyes. Use your lugs more.

I once knew a guy who practised in front of a mirror for up to twelve hours a day to copy, with infinitecimal and forensic detail, every nuance of John Williams' technique.

Hands up anyone who thinks he ended up sounding like John Williams? It looked like John Williams technique but it sounded like the way fish and chips tastes in a Sri Lankan restaurant where the chef has only seen pictures.

Grisha can publicly demonstrate his art, and the insecurities of a sensitive soul blessed with high intellingence as well as humility and a profound musical ability, but it will not change reality. He's allowed to 'hate his playing' but for anyone else to hate it is simply to state they cannot hear the magic about them, for example. (Not that you said that Tom, I'm just saying his willingness to share needs honesty from the rest of us.) But I've read people here saying they 'hate' Paco, for example. So anything is possible.

All this guy needs is work, gigs, earning money, and more gigs. Period. His right hand is neither classical nor is it flamenco. It is Grisha. I'd give my right arm for a right hand like that. How about a swap Grisha? I'll give you a weakling arm for your classical right hand and sort it out for you then give it back?

If you ever play in Switzerland, Ill be there Grisha.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 17:40:24
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 608
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

I hope you guys realize that "duende" is hardly even flamenco in the first place. I'm almost certain that the term came about from Federico Garcia Lorca, and unless my knowledge of flamenco history is piss-poor, I'm pretty sure that flamenco existed before Lorca.

From Wikipedia:

quote:

Drawing on popular usage and Spanish folklore, Federico García Lorca first developed the aesthetics of Duende in a lecture he gave in Buenos Aires in 1933, "Juego y teoria del duende" ("Play and Theory of the Duende").


Not to mention that this entire discussion is pointless. Duende, aire, what have you... yeah it's nice if you grew up in the culture... but it is CERTAINLY quite possible to gain a sufficient enough understanding of the music and to become imbued with the cultural nuances to an extent where one does justice to this music... flamenco is not a mystical art whose authentic manifestation depends on whether one is a Gypsy, Spaniard, a payo, or whatever else... it is all about the person's passion and dedication; if one has achieved a very high level of performance and personal expression and is still lambasted for their supposed lack of 'duende', then I think there are deeper issues at stake on the part of the one offering unsubstantiated criticism, including but not limited to jealousy, racially-motivated protectionism, reverse/hypocritical racism, etc...

Finally -- and this may be a reflection of my own bias, considering that I started my guitar studies with classical -- but I fail to see how having a "classical" technique can impede one's flamenco playing unless one fails to successfully incorporate flamenco techniques into one's "bag of tricks". Every single flamenco guitarist has a unique technique. Vicente's hand position is very unique. Paco's hand position is very unique. I can go on and on. Are their positions "classical" or "flamenco"? Does it even matter? Grisha's hand position is just as unique, and considering the strength of his technique and tone, I fail to see how it is a detriment in any capacity.

_____________________________

Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 17:47:05
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to z6

quote:

So, Stevie Wonder, or anyone with their eyes closed is denied duende?


Don't bring Stevie into this, as I love some of his music, but the idea that sight can help manifest duende is certainly a valid point... not the only way but a valid addition. And the rest of your post seems to play to your own thoughts, not what I would imagine.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 18:04:19
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

I hope you guys realize that "duende" is hardly even flamenco in the first place. I'm almost certain that the term came about from Federico Garcia Lorca, and unless my knowledge of flamenco history is piss-poor, I'm pretty sure that flamenco existed before Lorca


Somehow this thread has gotten off course from my mention that I wish Grisha kept a little tighter right hand style, with the implication that he play a little more from the middle right hand finger joint, like the Miguel Rodriguez You Tube I presented. Duende was not my main thrust here.

And, as I said, I like Grisha's music and I'm glad he has chosen to develop some of the older style music with the modern styles.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 18:18:33
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Naw Tom. I'm afraid that simply stating that something is a valid point does not qualify it as such. In fact, it's pretty dumb. And if it weren't for the fact that I know that you know I also say extremely dumb things, I wouldn't say it.

I should add: If NASA ever send out another 'recording' into space and they want to include an example of human achievement in the field of guitar playing, Grisha would be a candidate, without duende and with a high right hand, or not.

Duende indeed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 18:19:57
 
RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to z6

quote:

should add: If NASA ever send out another 'recording' into space and they want to include an example of human achievement in the field of guitar playing, Grisha would be a candidate, without duende and with a high right hand, or not.


Duende aside, why would NASA send a copy when they could send a performance by the original composer?

I am convinced that duende does indeed come from using the middle right hand finger joint and not from smoking joints.

_____________________________

Flamenco Guitar is a percussion instrument. Start acting like percussionists.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 19:16:17
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Bulerias2005

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 20:00:48
 
RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

They have bottles of it here in Kazakhstan. I drank whole bottle last night. I still play like crap.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Flamenco Guitar is a percussion instrument. Start acting like percussionists.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 20:06:39
 
Bulerias2005

 

Posts: 608
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shroomy726

quote:


Not to mention that this entire discussion is pointless.


Agreed. That's kind of what we are all trying to say.

quote:


I hope you guys realize that "duende" is hardly even flamenco in the first place. I'm almost certain that the term came about from Federico Garcia Lorca, and unless my knowledge of flamenco history is piss-poor, I'm pretty sure that flamenco existed before Lorca.

From Wikipedia:

Drawing on popular usage and Spanish folklore, Federico García Lorca first developed the aesthetics of Duende in a lecture he gave in Buenos Aires in 1933, "Juego y teoria del duende" ("Play and Theory of the Duende").




Please research the phrase I quoted from Torres (see above).

I will, but in any case, duende as a strictly flamenco concept came about after both of them developed independently. Guys like Nino Ricardo never talked about duende -- they talked about "gracia". :)

_____________________________

Daniel Volovets
Jazz, Classical, Flamenco, & Latin-American Guitar
http://www.danielvolovets.com/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 14 2013 20:22:11
 
FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 897
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to RibNibbler

quote:

They have bottles of it here in Kazakhstan. I drank whole bottle last night. I still play like crap.



One bottle is not enough. You need to keep drinking until you start pissing duende.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 12:40:23
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

I hope you guys realize that "duende" is hardly even flamenco in the first place. I'm almost certain that the term came about from Federico Garcia Lorca, and unless my knowledge of flamenco history is piss-poor, I'm pretty sure that flamenco existed before Lorca.

From Wikipedia:

quote:

Drawing on popular usage and Spanish folklore, Federico García Lorca first developed the aesthetics of Duende in a lecture he gave in Buenos Aires in 1933, "Juego y teoria del duende" ("Play and Theory of the Duende").


didn't Lorca get the idea from Manuel Torre?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 16:49:36
 
mark74

 

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Apr. 15 2013 17:01:35
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 17:00:58
 
mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Tom Blackshear

I feel duende when i play with myself
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 17:02:13
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Bulerias2005

quote:

Finally -- and this may be a reflection of my own bias, considering that I started my guitar studies with classical -- but I fail to see how having a "classical" technique can impede one's flamenco playing unless one fails to successfully incorporate flamenco techniques into one's "bag of tricks". Every single flamenco guitarist has a unique technique. Vicente's hand position is very unique. Paco's hand position is very unique. I can go on and on. Are their positions "classical" or "flamenco"? Does it even matter?


I sort of disagree with this. I think there is a very important distinction between classical and flamenco technique both hands, and inside of the minute details of execution exist the elements that might produce (or not) "proper" AIRE and SONIQUETE and some other important buzz words of flamenco which when piled up actually ARE partial ingredients of duende. The simple fact we can all clearly hear if a guitarist is a classical or flamenco player just by hearing them doing an arpegio scale or thumb passage should tell you that. In the tricky area of certain classical players interpreting flamenco (not the reverse) we could discuss the issues Mr. Blackshear brings up. An example: PEPE ROMERO.... but at this time I'd rather not even get into it.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 17:20:57
 
Escribano

Posts: 6332
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Ricardo

For me, 'duende' loosely translates as 'goosebumps'

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 17:46:49
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Escribano

That sound good, Escribano

Or, one time the performance of Tientos brought a tear to my eye
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 18:01:50
 
z6

 

Posts: 225
Joined: Mar. 1 2011
 

RE: Grisha new videos! (in reply to Escribano

Escribano nailed it.

No need for the unatainable. It's just music.

Maybe, if you only get it at sunset every 35 years, with eyes open, you get melon sized bumps?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 15 2013 18:23:59
Page:   <<   <   1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: <<   <   1 2 3 4 [5]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.09375 secs.