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solea vs solea por buleria
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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 RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to bursche)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bursche
Ricardo, your videos make it crystal clear.
But one question remains: Is there a difference between Soleá por Bulería and Bulería por Soleá?...hmmm....
Sort of yes. Solea por buleria evolved as a term I think because of dance, and the guitar followed suit. In the dance "solea por buleria" there can be a number of cantes used. Buleria larga or corta or Sordo la Luz (see norman's site for the 3 melodies) are popular but mixed with a number of soleas too... frijones 2 mainly but couple others that are 3 lines are used. (again Norman has em laid out). Of course proper bulerias de jerez is typical finale. Over time, those songs mixed together it seems have taken on the same label as the dance. "solea por buleria". It is appropriate to refer to cante of only the 3 melodies mixed up Buleria larga corta and Sordo...as "BULERIA POR SOLEA" that would be the correct terminology and usage....but when refering to guitar playing only those terms are interchangeable and mean the same thing. Meanwhile any mix of solea's can get miss labled or generally labeled as "solea por buleria". For dance, "Solea" or "soleares" implies the slower tempo PLUS the specific cante styles of Alcala. Indeed, most of the times I hear any Alcala style sung, regardless if a buleria larga gets tossed into the mix, the label "SOLEA" is given.
Not sure if that makes it more clear or more confusing, but the main point is the labels are used in different ways depending on context so in certain cases, YES there is a difference, others NO they mean the same thing.
To put it most clearly, the first cante I accompanied is buleria por solea and only that (the orginal audio without guitar was miss labled "solea al golpe"), and the second cante is Solea with a buleria larga mixed in there....but guitar wise I think of my way to play for both as the same, and would call it "solea por buleria" just like my second solo piece above.
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Date Mar. 17 2013 18:54:22
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to rickm)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rickm
ok let me try and understand the solea por buleria sounds a lot like a buleria to me. Much more driving and percussive. So, if I play a traditional kind of solea falseta, like ramon montoya or bronce gitano by sabicas but play it faster and with more ras, that is more percussive do I now have a out of synch solea or a solea por buleria. I might be wrong but it seemed to me that in the solea por buleria your actually using more typical buleria chording whatever. Am I being too naive here?
Solea (por medio) solea por buleria and buleria all have the same chording and such. Likewise Solea por arriba, solea por buleria and buleria too all in E same deal. Your ear is most likely just latching on to the similarities of the key of A, hence relating buleria to solea por buleria more closely. The TRUE difference is the phrasing and feel once the tempo is increased (watch out for buzz words like aire soniquete duende etc). Hence there will be things that don't feel right for all 3, but oddly you will find a couple little things that all 3 can make use of. In general I would say the solea por buleria phrasing will be MORE like fast solea, rather than slow buleria....hope that makes sense. To get an understanding of tempo differences, solea for baile will be super slow so not counting that Solea you will hear at 110 to 120 BPM, Solea por buleria more like 140-160 bpm, and buleria anything over 200 bpm or so. IF you attempt to play buleria at 170 say, then solea por buleria at 170, the difference will be quite noticeable. But try the same for Solea between 120 to 150 and you realize the forms are the exact same.
Ricardo
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www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Mar. 17 2013 19:05:04
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to bursche)
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quote:
But one question remains: Is there a difference between Soleá por Bulería and Bulería por Soleá?...hmmm....
As always, the only constant and reliable difference is the cante. Just as caña is sort of like soleá, but not, soleá por bulería (also known as bulería por soleá, bulerías al golpe and bulería pa'escuchar) is no different from soleá...except for the cante.
Por medio and por arriba were never good identifiers since the position responds to the singer's vocal register (women for example usually need to sing soleá por medio), and many young guitarists don't even bother with cejillas since the diapasón is their playground and no chord is left unplayed. Not to mention the fact that these specific cantes were developed, and continue to often be sung without guitar accompaniment (bulerías "al golpe" refers to knocking out compás on a table), so proceed at your own risk if you rely on guitar markers to identify the cante.
Tempo is also a poor marker because soleá was traditionally sung at a good clip (in Utrera it still is), and it was only around the 1970s it slowed way down in response to performing dancers who wanted more time to build drama and intensity, especially in tablaos were very long dance numbers were common.
There is no short-cut, no substitute for knowing cante.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Mar. 28 2013 10:14:56
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to mark74)
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Fandango personales (fandango naturales or fandango grande, same thing freely sung but based on the form that originates in Huelva) were often performed in the old days either to normal fandango compas, although stretched, loose compas, to Solea compas, or totally free. One of my favorites of old was Manuel Vallejo, with guitarists like Manolo de Huelva. I love the form because it gets to the heart about a dying accompaniment style, that being, keep time for free sung meldies and catch chord changes as they come.
In the recent thread about "hot tocaoras", I posted a video of a young woman playing that style for a singer that imitates Vallejo. Another is done by Platero de Alcala in Rito y geografia, based on a singer from alcala (home of solea styles) named "El Currilla de Alcala". In theory, you could sing fandango in a similar manner over ANY compas, even tangos rumba or bulerias. I have in fact heard many times fandango por buleria. Some great examples, Chano Lobato on the first disc of guitarist Juan Habichuela, and the famous, only available (youtube) Live boot leg recording of Camaron and Paco de Lucia, he ends the bulera with fandango. As far as doing it over tango or rumba, I can only admit it might be a taste issue for some people. Gipsy kings sing granaina in one very latin flavored rumba. For sure, the fandango por solea is a cool form that is pretty much dead amongst modern singers. Hope some young people pick it back up soon.
Ricardo
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 1 2013 17:27:09
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Fandango personales (fandango naturales or fandango grande, same thing freely sung but based on the form that originates in Huelva) were often performed in the old days either to normal fandango compas, although stretched, loose compas, to Solea compas, or totally free.
No, fandangos personales means attributed to an individual (such as fandango del Niño León, fandango de Manuel Torre...) rather than to a geographical region (such as fandangos de Encinasola, fandangos de Santiponce...).
However, fandangos naturales means free-form compás. So you can have a fandango personal which has compás (such as the fandango of Frasquito Yerbabuena or the fandango of Pérez de Guzmán), just as you might have a free-form fandango personal. And fandangos don't have to be from the province of Huelva, although that's where there's the greatest variety of styles.
Any fandango can be sung to the compás of soleá por bulería, and then we say "fandango por soleá", although the cante itself is unchanged. Vallejo triggered a flurry of popularity of fandango por soleá, but nowadays it's usually only interpreted by older singers from Utrera and Lebrija.
But most of all, please people: there's no such thing as "fandango grande". I think Don Pohren may have used the phrase for American readers, but you won't hear it from Spanish singers or guitarists. (Yes, I know Juan Serrano uses the term...guess where he's been living for the last 50 years).
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Apr. 1 2013 18:13:10
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Many gitanos (FROM SPAIN) still use that term, singers and guitarists. I agree it sounds pretentious, but if they are really into fandango it's understandable to me. I understood naturales and personales to be interchangeable when describe fandangos that were not from Huelva, or from a specific region outside of Huelva. Which fandangos naturales are NOT personal creations? If naturales only means "free of compas" why not "fandango libre"?
As soon as I moved to Spain, I realized the term "fandango grande" was not understood or used by anyone here. If singers or guitarists use it around you, it's because they've heard it from other Americans and want to speak in terms that will be quickly understood. In Spain, use it at your own risk.
Fandangos personales are usually, but not always naturales. These terms as used in Spain are not interchangeable. If I tell a guitarist to play fandangos, he'll probably launch directly into free-form accompaniment, but if he has his doubts he might ask "¿naturales?". Never will he ask "¿personales?" because it matters little to him which styles I sung, although it's crucial to know whether he is to play free-form or rhythmic. The bottom line is, these words are not synonymous.
Fandangos can be from Huelva capital or towns of Huelva, or they can be from other provinces, including outside Andalucía. They can be personales and/or naturales. Fandangos naturales also happen to be personal creations, but not all fandangos personales are naturales. Just like all apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples.
Why not "fandango libre"? No reason whatsoever. Convince enough people and maybe it'll catch on.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Apr. 1 2013 20:17:05
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
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quote:
My first time on the Paris Metro I noticed an ad in the station. It portrayed a bottle with a familiar distinctive shape containing a pinkish salad dressing, known as "French Dressing" throughout the USA. The caption on the ad said, "Sauce Americaine."
There are many examples of mislabeled food.
What we Americans know as a "hamburger" has no such name in Hamburg, Germany. In Hamburg and other parts of Germany it is known as a "Frickadelle."
What we call a "Danish pastry" did not originate in Denmark. It's origin is in Vienna, Austria, carried to Denmark by Viennese pastry-makers.
Cheers,
Bill
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With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Feb. 21 2014 22:39:08
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: solea vs solea por buleria (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Sure Utrera, and Alcala, and Sevilla, and Cadiz, and Jerez....but everywhere else it's a weak beat.
Only Utrera singers prefer the SxB accompaniment for soleá, they're famous for that sound. Occasionally Lebrija singers do it too, because of the ties with Utrera, and some have even taken to calling it "soleá rítmica", which makes oldtimers chuckle, in order to distinguish it from standard soleá, slow and phrased.
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Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Feb. 22 2014 15:40:04
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