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FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011

Need your help!

Hello again to all the foro members!

Besides playing flamenco I am an industrial engineer student, and as part of a "Project Management" course I'm developing a working plan for building a flamenco guitar ;)

I need some numbers, they don't have to be precise, and they are only for a small academic project.

Any help will be appreciated :)

1. What is the cost of the folowings:
a. Spruce wood for the top
b. Rosewood wood for the back, sides and bridge
c. cedarwood for the neck
d. Shellac

2. I'v written down most of the steps in building the guitar , but I have no clue how much time each step takes. Can you please write estimate time each can take ?

Rosetta:
1. Rosetta drawing on the page
2. gluing the chosen sticks
3. Drying under pressure
4. Cutting into small mosaic

Top:
1. Cut two halfs of blocks (under block I mean the uncurved wood)
2. drawing Top's shape on the blocks
3. Gluing two halves
4. Drying
5. Top shape cutting
6. Scraping a circle for the Rossetti
7. Rosetta Mosaic paste (made only after cutting the Rosetta sticks )
8. scraping the Top + Test proper thickness
9. sanding
10. Mapping Points for the braces
11. Sawing bracing parts
12. gluing the braces
13. installing the top into the press (putting the flexible bars)
14. Drying under pressure
15. Cutting a hole in the resonant
16. Carving the braces

Back:
1. Cut two halfs of blocks
2. Drawing Back's shape
3. Pasting two halves
4. Drying
5. Cutting Back's shape
6. scraping of the back + Test proper thickness
7. gluing the braces
8. Drying under pressure
9. Carving the braces

Neck:
1. Cutting the neck block, head block, spanish foot block
2. gluing the head to the neck+ gluing the top wood to the head
3. Drying
4. Drawing the head stock shape
5. Sawing head shape +tuning keys and holes
6. Paste the spanish foot block
7. Drawing the foot shape on the block
8. Carving spanish foot

sides:
1. Cutting two blocks to the sides
2. scraping the two sides+ Test proper thickness
3. Heating bending rod
4. bending both sides
5. Fixation and drying of wood

bindings:
1. Cutting Sticks for binding+gluing
2. bending
3. Drying

assembly: (done only after neck and Top polls)
1. Paste the neck to the Top (on the Solera for sure the angle is correct)
2. Drying under pressure
3. gluing the sides (with the aid of the small wood pieces)
4. Drying under pressure
5. gluing the back
6. Drying under pressure
7. Carving channels for the bindings
8. Paste the bindings (after they are ready)
9. Drying under pressure
10. Filing and sanding
11. french polish+drying (all the coats)
12. Bridge Block Cutting
13. Carving bridge + Nut + saddle
14. Paste bridge
15. Drying under pressure
16. Installing tuning Keys
17. Tying strings

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2013 6:13:34

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:11:01

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2013 18:56:59

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

rule 1 of project management regarding time: ask for both effort and duration times.
rule 2, because you want to make sure you have as many luthiers spend time on this as you can. Get many estimates to do 3-point estimates then use Monte Carlo to get your probabilities of meeting your timeline.

Finally, since you don't know how to build guitars, I would weigh the worst-case estimate to consider that variable and consider high risk of rework and starting over, and also double the cost of you material in case you make cutting mistakes.

Finally, after looking at the total cost and risk of the poor quality of the guitar, I would review the business case and buy one directly from a luthier ;)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2013 19:41:35

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Need your help! (in reply to rogeliocan)

quote:

rule 1 of project management regarding time: ask for both effort and duration times.

Do you mean man-hours of effort plus elapsed time that does not involve effort e.g. glueing and then waiting for glue to dry before proceeding?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2013 19:56:08

rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: Need your help! (in reply to Escribano)

quote:

Do you mean man-hours of effort plus elapsed time that does not involve effort e.g. glueing and then waiting for glue to dry before proceeding?

Yes, exactly that.

By the way, I was joking about most of the stuff I wrote, although it would be true for a high risk and high cost project. But for the time, you need to get both.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 15 2013 22:10:57

flyhere

Posts: 121
Joined: Dec. 17 2012

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:09:50

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2013 0:32:26

FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Huh , thank you for your response.

Rog , I agree with you , but the goal of my project is not to build a guitar by myself.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough: I need the time an average luthier will spend on making one guitar.

I found an old thread by Andy but I hoped someone could actually set times to all those steps.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2013 7:03:20

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Although I suspect all the luthiers read this and avoiding answering because that in itself is a chore and time consuming effort, and also the answers will vary for each, and of course some fight might start like "why do YOU spend so much time carving the bla bla, only takes me an hour...." etc etc....but I think it would be VERY interesting to hear from at least one luthier on this. I patiently wait.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2013 16:26:20

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Since the project is academic and putting numbers on it would probably not create a fight, but for some reason none of the guitar makers want to broach the subject so far. ..hmm.

One major thing missing from this work path is the idea of building a series supporting jigs, studio-shop furnishings like benches and smaller tools and specialzed appliances that are usualy hand made by the luthier. Those tools can take alot of time to build. Building a solera can take time and it needs to be done carefully.

And inevitably a fight could crop up over the use or non use of the dreaded radius dish. The radius dish, also known as The Orc's Discus or the Frisbee of Satan.

Any fights woud be more about which widgets each person uses and the name calling that would ensue when there were clashes over tools and jig use!

If you wanted the project be realistic you would have to factor in more than the building of the guitar and the main thing I would say beyond the actual assembly time would be shop and fixture set up.

It is also difficult to place time values on many of the tasks the way they are parsed out on this chart. The listings don't really sail through what I would personally use as the critical path to build a guitar. Or for that matter the way I would descibe or do each task. And many of the tasks listed are not tasks I would do using the style of building I do.

For example I don't use individual sticks to make rosette tiles so the whole conceptualization of the types of sub assemblies and order they are done in is incorrect for me and the entire proceedural time line would have to totally rewritten for me to fit my method into that format. I would think most other guitrmakers systems and building rhythms are too personal and varied to be able to fit them into this format.

So the first thing I would do if I were an industial designer or engnieer is I would set aside time to research and consult guitarmakers on the way they prioritize sub assemblies in relation to the over all assembly. Then establish a format that could be used by several guitar makers to give input. The format would give each sub assembly section more choices for methodological variation.

A sample might be to break it down into into the actual ways guitar makers think about the critical path. Let the guitar maker establish the order of assembly of all the major constiutent parts. Some guitarmakers build the neck first and others begin with the top...for example. A better list of major sub assemblies might go like this:

Neck

Top

Sides

Back

So for example the rosette would not be aseparate task, but come under the heading of 'Top'

Neck would include subassemblies like headstock veneer.
------------

~Then within in each sub assembly a list of specific tasks pertinent to a particular makers style which you would learn by asking them more about the style they build.

~Then the path goes to the first assembly of the super structure, getting the guitar in guitar form as a whole.

~Next the post assembly sub routines like: fingerboard, binding, fretting, set up, finishing. Each of those tasks has a sub list of tasks if you wanted to go that far.
_________________________________________________________________

So the list as it is seems difficult to me to comment on because it does not fit the way guitarmakers basically think or refer to processes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2013 22:36:41

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Wel, well, well, I did it again. Colored myself the turd in the punch bowl once again.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 17:54:53

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need your help! (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Wel, well, well, I did it again. Colored myself the turd in the punch bowl once again.

bla bla bla....no timings???

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 20:04:23

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

quote:

bla bla bla....no timings???

Nope, because the things listed to time don't make any sense, as I explained.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 20:57:09

ramon roman

Posts: 21
Joined: Nov. 9 2012

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Yo fullmetal
Why don't you go to your browser and put in "guitar building". A whole bunch of videos pop up showing all types of guitar building videos. Some real great ones there. Even a guy showing how to make a rosette from scratch. How many sticks he glues together etc.
Ramon

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 3:58:54

FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

Ramon, thats exactly what I'v done. The only problem is that you can't assess from the videos the time each step takes.

However I got all the numbers I needed with the help of Erez Perelman.

Andy and Stephen, thank you very much as well.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2013 17:57:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

quote:

However I got all the numbers I needed with the help of Erez Perelman.

well...post the data!!!! (I know I am evil

)

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 5:18:06

FullMetalGuitarist

Posts: 88
Joined: Aug. 22 2011

RE: Need your help! (in reply to Ricardo)

Ah , sorry Ricardo , I signed with blood for Secrecy

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 17:44:12

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Need your help! (in reply to FullMetalGuitarist)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FullMetalGuitarist

Ah , sorry Ricardo , I signed with blood for Secrecy

Luthier's are a funny breed. I'm not gonna record my best falsetas anymore.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 18:05:06

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Need your help! (in reply to Ricardo)

Exactly, don't the luthiers always say it's in the hands?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2013 21:49:45