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RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
Im not familiar with that literature you mentioned, but i see governmental acts in foreign states to be in concordance with the interests of national companies. Not all, but in 9 out of 10 cases you could say the state is the agent who is executing and ensuring the interests of his national companies.
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
it's seriously creepy how leftists will defend/legitimize any tyrant who claims to be a champion of the poor..they ensure the rise of the next mini-caudillo
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
The problem with Fox News is that they are so dumb they don't know when they have been put down. Any one with half a brain cell can slip Fox News a whammy. It's not really much of an accomplishment.
I lived with some Nicaraguans for around 5 years. They fled during the Sandanista revolution, from what they say, because of their alliance with previous regime their land was taken, they were threatened and that more or less they were forced out. According to them, Ortega was the most evil man on the planet who stole all their wealth and forced them out of their homes and land. While I was living with them I made friends with another Nicaraguan guy who's family more or less came in to power during the revolution and had nothing but great things to say about Ortega, that his family had nothing until Ortega and how much he did for Nicaragua. The family I lived with would not even let my friend come over the hatred was so great. I listened to both sides for hours(usually not willingly) and I still have no opinion one way or the other.
Basically what I noticed is just how polarized a place can be. We think we're polarized here in the U.S. but it's nothing compared to places like this. I'm willing to bet Venezuela is not very different. I've seen Venezuelans say Chavez was their savior and I've seen others call him a dangerous dictator. Either way, in those situations I don't find it my place to even have an opinion as I did not live through it personally....
bro, that type of logical well reasoned and thought out post of actual experience has NO BUSINESS in this type of topic! This if only for people that want their singular view point to be heard and WELL understood.
bro, that type of logical well reasoned and thought out post of actual experience has NO BUSINESS in this type of topic! This if only for people that want their singular view point to be heard and WELL understood.
Orange guitars for you! Period! ~
On another note, I worked for a summer in a gas station in Big Sur with a burned out drinker who had just spent five years in Central America as a staff photographer for the Washington Post.
He showed me binders full, ha ha, binders full of women he photographed who were not enjoying the war. The Post would not publish, any of them. One I remember distinctly was of two teenage Indian girls who he said were thirteen or fourteen standing in a dugout canoe wearing camoflage uniforms and bearing M-16's. He said they went out on patrols like that every night.
I always wonder what happened to them. I don't care too much about famous loud mouthed politicians after I saw his photographs. Not all the subjects were alive. The best thing that ever happened to Hugo Chavez was when the King of Spain told him to shut his big mouth. Otherwise, whether for good or bad, that guy never let anyone one else speak. Having been on the receiving end of countless drunken speeches from older male relations as a child I could never relate to Chavez' grandiose and overbearing oratory. He was not much more than a garden variety blowhard, and he really was not that smart.
When a loved one dies whether they are a vicious dictator or a loud mouth lout with some power, my heart goes out the children and wife, mother of the said blowhard. To them he was loved and he loved them back. They mourn and they are what should be meditated upon by the world.
Whether Chavez went to heaven or hell either God or the Devil is telling him to shut up and give them a moment of peace from his infinite blabbing. God and the Devil will probably bounce Chavez back and forth between them for eternity like two divorced parents shuttle a child back and forth bi weekly according to a custody settlement.
Eventually, after several kalpas elapse, Hugo himself might be able to sit quietly without opening his mouth. Then he will be at peace.
I lived with some Nicaraguans for around 5 years. They fled during the Sandanista revolution, from what they say, because of their alliance with previous regime their land was taken, they were threatened and that more or less they were forced out. According to them, Ortega was the most evil man on the planet who stole all their wealth and forced them out of their homes and land. While I was living with them I made friends with another Nicaraguan guy who's family more or less came in to power during the revolution and had nothing but great things to say about Ortega, that his family had nothing until Ortega and how much he did for Nicaragua. The family I lived with would not even let my friend come over the hatred was so great. I listened to both sides for hours(usually not willingly) and I still have no opinion one way or the other.
Basically what I noticed is just how polarized a place can be. We think we're polarized here in the U.S. but it's nothing compared to places like this. I'm willing to bet Venezuela is not very different. I've seen Venezuelans say Chavez was their savior and I've seen others call him a dangerous dictator. Either way, in those situations I don't find it my place to even have an opinion as I did not live through it personally....
bro, that type of logical well reasoned and thought out post of actual experience has NO BUSINESS in this type of topic! This if only for people that want their singular view point to be heard and WELL understood.
Yeah, uhm, no. Because you have to have lived in the nazi regime to have an opinion on it, right? RIGHT?
The best thing that ever happened to Hugo Chavez was when the King of Spain told him to shut his big mouth.
thanks for reminding us, Stephen. That was a classic moment that occurred at the 2007 Ibero-Latin American Summit in Santiago, Chile. Chavez kept interrupting, and even called a former Spanish Prime Minister a "Fascist." Chavez is so thick-headed and such a boor, however, that I doubt it even registered with him how badly he had just been put down by King Juan Carlos in front of the entire leadership of Spain and Latin America.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
That was a classic moment that occurred at the 2007 Ibero-Latin American Summit in Santiago, Chile. Chavez kept interrupting, and even called a former Spanish Prime Minister a "Fascist."
Well, no doubt Chavez lacked social graces, but he was right. The former PM is a fascist and he and his friends from Opus Dei and Manos Limpios are pulling the strings in the Spanish government, which, in one year, has dismantled the social welfare state, cut health and education, is eliminating the middle class, empoverishing the poor and enriching the rich, in the midst of multiple corruption scandals.
the Spanish government, which, in one year, has dismantled the social welfare state, cut health and education, is eliminating the middle class, empoverishing the poor and enriching the rich, in the midst of multiple corruption scandals.
...while under Chavez's policies of nationalization, expropriation, and control of the media and levers of power, Venezuela has experienced a huge outflow of money going to Miami banks, no foreign direct investment to create more jobs (who wants to have investments expropriated?), rampant inflation, shortages of everything from basic foodstuffs to consumer goods, and, ironically, a hollowing out of the middle class.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
quote:
Yeah, uhm, no. Because you have to have lived in the nazi regime to have an opinion on it, right? RIGHT?
That's A LOT more black & white. Even the family that hated Ortega didn't mention racial genocide, if so it would've made having an opinion much easier.
quote:
bro, that type of logical well reasoned and thought out post of actual experience has NO BUSINESS in this type of topic! This if only for people that want their singular view point to be heard and WELL understood.
Haha, next time I'll keep my controversial opinion to myself and go kick rocks
...while under Chavez's policies of nationalization, expropriation, and control of the media and levers of power, Venezuela has experienced a huge outflow of money going to Miami banks, no foreign direct investment to create more jobs (who wants to have investments expropriated?), rampant inflation, shortages of everything from basic foodstuffs to consumer goods, and, ironically, a hollowing out of the middle class.
Well, I was not talking about Chavez, about whom i know nothing, I was talking about Spanish fascism.
But I remember well, when I was writing my thesis on the effect of information technology on the Third world, I discovered that the American multinationals and the American government were the most sinverguenza del mundo, overthrowing foreign governments, starting wars, putting pressure on Brazil to stifle its growning microcomputer industry etc, etc: the list of self interested vergonzosos actions is too long for this or any other forum. Morally the good old USA is the leper of the world.
Chavez is getting a bit of a bum rap from Stephen, who just wants to call him names, and Bill, whose criteria is based on neo-liberalism. If you were rich or middle class (which in Latin America, means rich), you were probably worse off for Chavez. If you were an investor looking to commercially exploit Venezuela, the same. If you were poor, you probably did better because of him.
You will notice that if the leader of a country does not favor neo-liberal, Western-dominated finance or business, then he is a "dictator" and will be disposed of by coup, various forms of embargoes, or outright war. If he supports local elites and opens his country for Western exploitation, he is "one of our guys" and will receive favorable treatment in the media. It is often the same person (Noriega, Saddam, Khaddafi), but the narrative changes according to the stage of the game.
Well, I was not talking about Chavez, about whom i know nothing, I was talking about Spanish fascism.
But I remember well, when I was writing my thesis on the effect of information technology on the Third world, I discovered that the American multinationals and the American government were the most sinverguenza del mundo, overthrowing foreign governments, starting wars, putting pressure on Brazil to stifle its growning microcomputer industry etc, etc: the list of self interested vergonzosos actions is too long for this or any other forum. Morally the good old USA is the leper of the world.
I know that you were talking about Spanish Fascism. But it was in the context of my comment about Chavez's criticism, and my point is that Chavez was hardly in a position to criticize how Spain was governed, given the way he has run Venezuela. The only reason his policies have not run Venezuela completely into the ground is the vast reserves of oil that keep it afloat, in spite of his political and economic policies that have led to inflation, retarded growth, resulted in shortages, provoked an outflow of capital, and discouraged foreign direct investment.
Regarding your comment that, "Morally the good old USA is the leper of the world," I don't see a shred of evidence to back up all your accusations that preceded it. The US has engaged in some unsavory practices, but it also has done much good. You seem incapable of distinguishing between the two, preferring to take the easy way out by suggesting that the US has been nothing but "the leper of the world." It is so much easier to substitute bumper-sticker shibboleths for serious thought.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Chavez is getting a bit of a bum rap from Stephen, who just wants to call him names,
Perhaps, but he lived up to those names. I could give him a bigger bum rap, but name calling is more creative, and name calling is pretty much what he based his statesmanship on. The defense of Chavez as a Robinhood archetype is pretty thin pickings. Mainly what he did was posturing, he's as dirty as any capitalist whom he so unartyfully preached against.
and Bill, whose criteria is based on neo-liberalism.
...because done correctly, neo-libaralism (which is the "au-courant" term among academics and anthropologists, but which is simply capitalism and the free-enterprise system) works. Prime examples in Latin America are Chile (an economic leading light for decades) and, more recently, Mexico and Peru. The Asian Tigers are another example: Singapore, Malaysia, Thailand, Indonesia Taiwan, and South Korea. And, of course, the biggest of all, China.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
My shop mate just said something very astute about the world today:
People are so desperate for a hero that they even consider guys like Chavez as a hero. I suppose I'm more cynical than neo-liberal; I would not consider him a hero. My heros are guys like John Coltrane or women like the President of Chile.
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
they know that bill they just had the misfortune to read howard zinn at some point in some lame poly-sci class and think it is at once the height of rebellious cool and intelligence to have these opinions
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