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RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I guess I'm wondering what the f@@k Chavez has to do with flamenco anyway. It's a risky thing when you post political and/or religious views. What did you expect?
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I have to say i am surprised too about your reaction to the reactions Anders. You must have been asleep during all the heated political off topic threads. Certain posts just were to be expected. Doesnt mean that it justifies or excuses the retardedness of some posts, but simply they were to be expected to happen.
quote:
we are stuck with each other and have about 3 choices, work it out, leave, or avoid
what about educate, humiliate, destroy? make fun of it, help, learn,... i could probably think of more things
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I simply won't engage in political or religious discussions online, it NEVER ends well. In fact, this is the only forum I've ever been a part of that allows them. Feelings get hurt, people get offended or angry, language barriers create misunderstandings etc it's all bad IMO.
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to ralexander)
quote:
n fact, this is the only forum I've ever been a part of that allows them
well its not a rule but they don't encourage it...
I don't know, personally I like that our hands aren't tied like a little kid's.....we don't like censorship in real life so why take it here
there will always be arguments and disagreements here, weather is for politics , religion, Juan Martin, Ruben, compas, etc........and considering what it could be there just aren't that many arguments about politics and religion
the responsibility should lie with us on what we engage in and then how we fix it.. not with admin to baby us..IMO
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
My Chavez post was not political
Sorry Anders but expressing sympathy for a highly controversial political figure IS writing something political.
Also I think your comment about "The Admin" is uncalled for. The rest of us generally have fun on the forum and enjoy it and it's many facets. If you're the only one with such a problem maybe the foro isn't the problem.....
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
quote:
I think the foro has serious problems and that Admin should rethink a few things and learn from other internet forums.
I am sorry, I don't understand.. what exactly do you think the admins could have done better to have avoided you this argument ?
ban politics and religious talk ? kick out people that have a different opinion to yours ?
you suggesting it so you must have some ideas on what admins should rethink cause i cant think of anything that they are responsible for in this incident..
If you have suggestions on running the forum better and feel that they are for the better then by all means suggest them...
Personally i don't think its fair that you throw it down to "the forum" or admins because You had a disagreement on a thread you started (whomever is at fault, i am not taking sides)...and that's all it was a disagreement ....in fact i think other forums should learn from us...because most times admins dont need to police us or tell us to apologize when we feel we are wrong..
i been here 10 years too and honestly ...i don't see that much difference...if anything its more tamed..unless the serious problems arised in the last 2 months when i haven't been here that often ..i just don't know of the serious problems you are referring to
Posts: 797
Joined: Jun. 1 2010
From: Halifax, Nova Scotia
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Florian)
quote:
the responsibility should lie with us on what we engage in and then how we fix it.. not with admin to baby us..IMO
I hear what you're saying, but I think it's pretty tough to make this work with such a broad spectrum of people without someone feeling disrespected or bullied. I'm not a fan of censorship either, but political discussions always spiral into a **** storm of some kind. The discussions may be of interest to some who like to debate, but I think in general it creates bad vibes in the community.
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to ralexander)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ralexander
quote:
the responsibility should lie with us on what we engage in and then how we fix it.. not with admin to baby us..IMO
I hear what you're saying, but I think it's pretty tough to make this work with such a broad spectrum of people without someone feeling disrespected or bullied. I'm not a fan of censorship either, but political discussions always spiral into a **** storm of some kind. The discussions may be of interest to some who like to debate, but I think in general it creates bad vibes in the community.
People who dont engage in any tiring discussion shouldnt feel any bad vibe honestly. Those who DO engage will have to take the pain of people disagreeing to their opinon i guess. At least thats what i would expect adults to be capable of. Its never the topic's fault anyway - people are arguing even against soundports or picado or nails or strings... it is ALWAYS the discussant's fault. Although to be honest, nothing that happens here really qualifies as a discussion. Its more an elongated chat, way too casual for serious stuff. Maybe for flamenco stuff, yes this might be the right place. Everything else? No.
Posts: 3484
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
One of the real attractions of the "off topic" section for me is the wide range of opinions that are expressed on a wide variety of subjects, by people from a wide range of backgrounds. It is a frequent reminder of the broad spectrum of opinion that one seldom hears in the USA.
Given the broad range of opinions, often contradictory, it would be impossible to agree with everyone. But I think it's good to be aware of what people may think. So I am grateful to people who express ideas that are at odds with my own.
Personally, I enjoy being contradicted. It makes me examine my position more carefully and look for more info on the subject of discussion.
One recent, fairly heated discussion prompted me to read a thick book by a well known historian on the subject. I learned a lot.
Of course I don't find personal attacks informative. Though they occur, they are fairly rare in proportion to sincere expressions of ideas. I think it's a good idea to avoid them altogether. When I engage in a discussion it is not with the objective of correcting someone's mistaken ideas. The objective is just to make clear what my take on the subject may be.
Of course, if someone disagrees with me, they are wrong, but that's their problem, not mine
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
Great post Richard !
you kind of expressed what i would have liked to about why the off topic section is good for the forum but don't have the eloquence to have done so as good as you did.,..I wish there was a "like" button here like in facebook
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan Of course I don't find personal attacks informative. Though they occur, they are fairly rare in proportion to sincere expressions of ideas. I think it's a good idea to avoid them altogether. When I engage in a discussion it is not with the objective of correcting someone's mistaken ideas. The objective is just to make clear what my take on the subject may be.
Personal attacks and correcting ideas are not the same, probably you didnt want to say that, but just to make it clear ;) Other than that i think you basically summed up the main difference between a chatter and a discussion.
Posts: 3491
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Richard Jernigan)
I enjoy participating in the "Off Topic" section because it provides a forum for discussion of a multitude of subjects and opinions. While the other sections concerning flamenco are interesting, many times they are repetitive, as the same questions and observations seem to appear from time to time. And the discussions on technique that clearly interest up-and-coming guitarists (as they should) do not have as much interest for me, mediocre guitarist that I am and always will be.
Like Richard, I ascribe to the idea that any subject--politics, economics, philosophy, social policy, international relations, etc.--is fair game for discussion. And that includes questioning the premise and supporting evidence behind the opinion or assertion. What should be off-limits are personal attacks and assumptions about a member's "social circles," profession, knowledge and experience with different aspects of the topic, and other assumptions about a member making his case. None of us knows what other members' "social circles," knowledge, and experience of the topic are. And even if we did, it would be wrong to essentiallize, and assume that he can be pigeon-holed as having certain attributes. People in the same profession, social circles, and other categories very often have a wide range of opinions.
Regarding the current dust-up over the original comment of "RIP Chavez," I think the original poster had every right to post it without being questioned why he did it. It was his sincere comment. Nevertheless, having raised the issue of Hugo Chavez, who was a very controversial leader to say the least, the subject became fair game for others to offer an opinion on Chavez. And they had a right to do so without having their motives impugned. After all, Chavez's death does not shield him from a discussion about the legacy he established while alive.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to BarkellWH)
Hear, hear.
I almost managed to not say anything, but seeing you and Richard post somehow attracted me once again.
Coming from a political place where some of Hugo Chavez' actions could at least possibly be seen positively--that is, being suspicious of big business, big oil, big banks, MNCs, neo-liberalism, US support of South American coups--it never failed to strike me with what uniformity and aggression the US media attacked Chavez. In our supposedly polarized country, with its supposedly polarized media, apparently the spectrum of permissible opinion does not allow anything but anti-Chavez sentiment. In this atmosphere, to call someone a "dictator" and to think that has expressed a worthy argument or even a thought is not unexpected. But neither repeating a bumper sticker nor unconsciously assuming the values of the media deserve to be called either argument or thought.
i dont know i guess the same reason there aren't that many, Romanians, Estonians, Austrians, New Zeelanders, Kazakhstaners list goes on ...guess not everyone likes flamenco...or found the forum...or wants to discuss it on a forum
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to Miguel de Maria)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria with its supposedly polarized media, apparently the spectrum of permissible opinion does not allow anything but anti-Chavez sentiment. In this atmosphere, to call someone a "dictator" and to think that has expressed a worthy argument or even a thought is not unexpected. But neither repeating a bumper sticker nor unconsciously assuming the values of the media deserve to be called either argument or thought.
Isnt that interesting? Now, the west usually prides itself that it has a "free press". But somehow the opinions thransported through the media mostly seem to concide with the "official" statements by the government. Filtering only those information that suit the national interests (we=good, others=evil), hell even producing wrong information just to fool population for a short time is a common practice in western media, without any neccessary control from officials. I remember that hoax about the Iranian president's statement on the holocaust, which turned out to be an intentional mistranslation.
Now Chavez is all evil. The average man will be able to tell you he is. But, and that is astounding, in 9 out of 10 cases he wont be able to tell why. Western media and democracy has managed to produce completely brainwashed, utterly stupid people that other heavily controlled media and non-free press could only dream of.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: I'm leaving the off topics section (in reply to XXX)
I haven't seen any reason to doubt the "propaganda model" as proposed by Herman in Manufacturing Consent. The official government statements are a big part of the equation, of course, but let's not forget the gigantic meme of "government is evil", used to bolster privatization and "austerity". This comes from the corporate/rich bloc.
I lived with some Nicaraguans for around 5 years. They fled during the Sandanista revolution, from what they say, because of their alliance with previous regime their land was taken, they were threatened and that more or less they were forced out. According to them, Ortega was the most evil man on the planet who stole all their wealth and forced them out of their homes and land. While I was living with them I made friends with another Nicaraguan guy who's family more or less came in to power during the revolution and had nothing but great things to say about Ortega, that his family had nothing until Ortega and how much he did for Nicaragua. The family I lived with would not even let my friend come over the hatred was so great. I listened to both sides for hours(usually not willingly) and I still have no opinion one way or the other.
Basically what I noticed is just how polarized a place can be. We think we're polarized here in the U.S. but it's nothing compared to places like this. I'm willing to bet Venezuela is not very different. I've seen Venezuelans say Chavez was their savior and I've seen others call him a dangerous dictator. Either way, in those situations I don't find it my place to even have an opinion as I did not live through it personally....
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