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RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to Sr. Martins)
How can you tell the one is a Classical guitar in this video? You might be right, but I'm curious ... I can't from the video tell whether it's a Flamenco Negra, Classical, or some kind of Hybrid ..?
Jeff
quote:
But for sure bridge details make a huge impact on the playing and the resultant "flamenco" sound. I love this comparison. Same player on a classical guitar with a tap plate, vs a proper flamenco. Couple of the same falsetas to compare:
GENERALLY, you might find a flamenco with a cedar top and cypress and sides or a Spruce top with rosewood back and sides but I can't recall anything other then classicals being Cedar top with Rosewood back and sides.
I was looking for the "here's the proof that it is a classical and built as one" and not the general feeling that people might get.
To me it is a spanish guitar that when played by this flamenco guitarist, the guitar also sounds flamenco. In the end, the sum of the parts would lead me to conclude it is a flamenco guitar.. and thats why Iam asking for proof.
I can see the colors but I dont think that it makes a guitar classical or flamenco. Nor the cedar or the spruce.
Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ
RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to Sr. Martins)
I think Ricardo is the one who made that assertion. I don't know if he has personal knowledge of those guitars, but perhaps he does.
There is also the meme or idea that some guitarists would use classical guitars with tap-plates as their main axes, for example Manolo Sanlucar and his Ramirez.
I usually think about this topic backwards. I don't worry abut flamenco guitars sounding classical, I think about classical guitars sounding flamenco.
I never like hearing a Spanish piece in the classical rep played on a guitar that does honky souless rasgueado. I like classical guitars that can rip rasgueados.
GENERALLY, you might find a flamenco with a cedar top and cypress and sides or a Spruce top with rosewood back and sides but I can't recall anything other then classicals being Cedar top with Rosewood back and sides.
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In last 7 - 8 years, here in Spain, cedartop flamenca negras have been quite popular amongst pro players.
You make some cedar generalizations which have absolutely nothing to do with reality.
Anders, what I mean is, often generalizations are made about negras, or blancas, or classicals. Yet some negras might sound very different than other negras; and there is a range of sounds that a blanca might make. Would say there is a good amount of overlap, that is, some negras sound the same as some blancas, and some classicals sound the same as some negras--or are the classes rather distinct (ie, negras do not sound like blancas at all).
Complicated question to write! I guess it would be easier to use some Venn Diagrams with the names of each, and to see if they overlap or do they exist in space all alone? :)
There is also the meme or idea that some guitarists would use classical guitars with tap-plates as their main axes, for example Manolo Sanlucar and his Ramirez.
Hi Mike I've heard this before - I think it was Paul Magnussen (member here and Flamenco columnist in Classical Guitar magazine) when reviewing Carlos Saura's 'Flamenco' film he made a point about Manolo getting a great flamenco tone from his classical guitar. I assumed it was a negra, but Paul is not one to guess.
Miguel, all this with sound, I dont find to be so very interesting.
What matters for me is the the way the different guitars work and react with the player, and yes, then there are diferences. And they can be big You can take a bright sounding blanca with body in its tone and a bright sounding classical with body in its tone and you´ll notice that the two creatures react totally different to the input you produce even if they have the same strings on.
And if you take a small light oldschool blanca and compare it to a big body lattice or doubletop classical, then the difference in feel of the guitars is very big.
Flamenco and classical guitarists have very different tonal ideas and esthetics and its the job of the builder to find what works with them. The feel is everything. Try to make Paco machinegun picado or rasgueados one one of these big classicals. Not only do they sound wrong, but the reaction of the guitar, the input that you, the player gets, feels so wrong in a flamenco point of view that you´ll understand that your mission (to produce Paco machinegun picado or rasgueados) will never be a succes.
Although I'm a new comer here, I will try adding in my 2 cents to this somewhat delicate question.
Richard Bruné said, in a GAL convention in 2006, that for him, what defines a Flamenco guitar is whatever a flamenco player uses to play flamenco. Of course, that is far from meaning that any classical guitar can be used to play flamenco. It just means that it is quite difficult to clearly establish what is a critical aspect that would define a flamenco guitar.
As an example, here is one of my customer palying a flamenco(ish) piece with a classical guitar. (Trust me, it' is a classical, I made it...)
This piece might sound even more flamenco on an actual flamenco guitar, but it's hard to say that the fact he uses a classical 'hurts' the piece.
That said, if there is one specific aspect I would have to point out to define a flamenco guitar, it would most certainly be the height of the strings at the bridge. Strings at 6 to 8 mm high will make the entire instrument, almost regardless of all other aspects, naturally drive a percussive sound, while a 10 to 12 mm height will make it more difficult, hense it will need a 'personnal touch' of the player to get it right.
That's my take on it. But take this for what it's worth. Food for thoughts, that's all...
How can you tell the one is a Classical guitar in this video? You might be right, but I'm curious ... I can't from the video tell whether it's a Flamenco Negra, Classical, or some kind of Hybrid ..?
Jeff
quote:
But for sure bridge details make a huge impact on the playing and the resultant "flamenco" sound. I love this comparison. Same player on a classical guitar with a tap plate, vs a proper flamenco. Couple of the same falsetas to compare:
That is a Ramirez III 1A, probably from 70's or early 80's. They all look the same pretty much, its a singular design. Ramirez has an interesting book where he basically admits he has not changed and can do very little with his flamenco model as modifications are not accepted. Only think was either pegs or machines spruce or cedar, with spruce often preferred. I dont' think he even makes a "negra" he just will take 1A CLASSICAL and lower the bridge saddle or perhaps change the bridge or neck set up to allow for a lower bridge. Tap plate stuck on, that's it. As the poster said above 10 or above is classical bridge, 8 or below is flamenco...IDEALLY. I have played flamencos that work fine with 10 or higher because the action over fingerboard is still low enough to 'snap". It hurts the skin around the nails a bit but can still work for flamenco. Manolo Sanlucar's guitar is extremely buzzy and leads me to think they only lowered the saddle and stuck on a tap plate. Trust me, I used to own one. Seeing tomatito with that thing really surprised me, Makes me want to go back in time and give my old guitar a second chance, cuz at the time I traded it I couldn't stand the thing.
Scientists in the capital city of Ulan Bator Mongolia have been conducting research with guitars for seven years in a controlled experiment utilizing a classical vs. flamenco pissing contest model. Although the study has not been completely concluded, researchers are releasing preliminary results. Barring input from other types of music and musical styles or musicians who play other than classical or flamenco, evidence points to the proving of the hypothesis that guitars basically and often do sound like guitars.
Mongolian researchers believe the controversy will rage on and probably never be resolved, but that at least in Mongolia they will have saved the country and given them a respite from the outside worlds obsession with this enormous problem. Lead scientist Chaka Ananda Khan says her team became bored with experiment about three months into it, but doggedly raced forward to answer this question to put it to rest for all Mongolians, adding: "We suspected as much from the beginning, but you can't be too careful."
The scientists will celebrate the seventh anniversary of the experiment next Wednesday with a dinner at MongolianBQQ Chalet in downtown Ulan Bator.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Scientists in the capital city of Ulan Bator Mongolia have been conducting research with guitars for seven years in a controlled experiment utilizing a classical vs. flamenco pissing contest model. Although the study has not been completely concluded, researchers are releasing preliminary results. Barring input from other types of music and musical styles or musicians who play other than classical or flamenco, evidence points to the proving of the hypothesis that guitars basically and often do sound like guitars.
Publication of the above-cited research in a technical guitar journal has been withheld, however, pending completion of an investigation being conducted out of Almaty, Kazakhstan. Kazakh investigators have uncovered strong evidence indicating that the researchers in Ulan Bator had conflicts of interest, and that they manipulated data to reach their conclusion that guitars often do sound like guitars. It appears that funding for their research came from the ever-ubiquitous guitar lobby, and that they were paid to confirm the hypothesis that guitars basically sound like guitars.
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)
quote:
Publication of the above-cited research in a technical guitar journal has been withheld, however, pending completion of an investigation being conducted out of Almaty, Kazakhstan. Kazakh investigators have uncovered strong evidence indicating that the researchers in Ulan Bator had conflicts of interest,
Oh yes the Kazahk experiments, principal investigator Sacha Baron Cohen has declined to speak at several international science conferences on the research casting doubts that National Labs of Kazakhstan have been using proper control modeling in the spectral analysis of the chrystalography renderings of Hellholtz profiles.
In some scientific circles this has even been jokingly called the Borat Effect, but still you may have a point Bill. You can't bee too careful. We will just have to wait for more peer reviewed journals to publish and then keep comparing research. Many experts postulate this issue, like the common cold or the silence of the Sphinx may never be solved, or even elucidated upon beyond what our human earworms can understand.
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Many experts postulate this issue, like the common cold or the silence of the Sphinx may never be solved,
One can only hope that the Kazakh investigators are able to maintain a chain of custody to protect the data that is said to have been suppressed by the Ulan Bator researchers. Rumor has it that the suppressed evidence demonstrates conclusively that guitars occasionally sound like woodwinds. If so, this would blow the lid off a hoax perpetrated by a mysterious organization that has insinuated itself into every aspect of our lives. Oliver Stone is said to be vying for the film rights.
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East."
You make some cedar generalizations which have absolutely nothing to do with reality. I´m not fighting anything. I was just saying that you were writing nonsense.
"Absolutely" and "nonsense" feel a bit extreme, I'm absolutely sure you're right that young players are starting to play with cedar negras but I'm not basing my info on "absolutely nothing". I look at a lot of guitar porn and I've just noticed this to be GENERALLY what I've seen.
Cedar is a trend that comes and goes, recycled for debate over and over in the minds of players. It cycles in and out of popularity. If you've looked at this debate over the course of many, many years you see this pattern.
There is really no debate, there are only guitars and they all sound pretty much like guitars. The only reason people talk about it is to sell guitars or because some players are too insecure to grab a cedar guitar and play it.
Spruce guitars sound like guitars, and then again Cedar guitars sound pretty much like guitars. I remember these same conversations when I started playing in the 1970's. Same BS different decade. Boring conversation.
Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: classical and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
Cedar is a trend that comes and goes, recycled for debate over and over in the minds of players. It cycles in and out of popularity. If you've looked at this debate over the course of many, many years you see this pattern.
There is really no debate, there are only guitars and they all sound pretty much like guitars. The only reason people talk about it is to sell guitars or because some players are too insecure to grab a cedar guitar and play it.
Spruce guitars sound like guitars, and then again Cedar guitars sound pretty much like guitars. I remember these same conversations when I started playing in the 1970's. Same BS different decade. Boring conversation.
Nothing new under the sun.
There is a reason that the prejudice develop. I can only speak for myself, I had a negative experience with my cedar top. I didn't know the reasons totally, and my technique not yet that developed although i could play fast with a pick. I just know something I didn't like about this Ramirez 1A. My teacher (classical player) on the other hand really liked my guitar. I was already starting to play flamenco. He had a spruce top and sold it and bought a Brune cedar top. He talked extensively about the differences the top makes, and he much preferred the cedar. So based on that guitar and my own, and comparing to other guitars then and a little later on, I started to blame the negative aspects my ear was experiencing on the cedar top, admitting of course it was personal taste. I assume other players went through similar things hence the perpetuated prejudice. Of course these are generalizations that can be totally played against if the right combo comes together (which is infact what happens to the minority that point out cedar is just great for flamenco etc). I agree it was totally wrong of me to blame the wood, but in the end I am still quite happy with my spruce top guitars. I just wish I had a chance, after a long time, to check out my old guitar again and see if it really was just me or the guitar, simply because that tomatito vid was so inspiring.
There is a reason that the prejudice develop. I can only speak for myself, I had a negative experience with my cedar top. I didn't know the reasons totally, and my technique not yet that developed although i could play fast with a pick. I just know something I didn't like about this Ramirez 1A. My teacher (classical player) on the other hand really liked my guitar. I was already starting to play flamenco. He had a spruce top and sold it and bought a Brune cedar top. He talked extensively about the differences the top makes, and he much preferred the cedar. So based on that guitar and my own, and comparing to other guitars then and a little later on, I started to blame the negative aspects my ear was experiencing on the cedar top, admitting of course it was personal taste. I assume other players went through similar things hence the perpetuated prejudice. Of course these are generalizations that can be totally played against if the right combo comes together (which is infact what happens to the minority that point out cedar is just great for flamenco etc). I agree it was totally wrong of me to blame the wood, but in the end I am still quite happy with my spruce top guitars. I just wish I had a chance, after a long time, to check out my old guitar again and see if it really was just me or the guitar, simply because that tomatito vid was so inspiring.
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