Desahucios en Andalucia

Costs are rising and times are tough.
Please consider a donation to keep this
place going.

Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.

You are logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >>Discussions >>Off Topic >>

Page: [1]

Message

<< Newer Topic Older Topic >>

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

Desahucios en Andalucia

I just read that here in Andalucia, 45 families are set on the streets EVERY day because they cant pay their mortgage. Andalucia has 9,5mill. inhabitants. Its really scary. What would happen in lets say Holland if 70 - 80 persons were set on the street every day???? Or if 400 families were set on the street every day in Germany
Lots of money to "save" the banks and nothing to save peoples life. Thats reality here. Its really depressing.
And when they are on the streets, they still have to pay the mortgage.
Long live the fantastic democracy that we (all of us) have created. Its so fair.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 9:22:43

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

You really believe the problems Andalucía and Spain has are because of "democracy"?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 11:26:06

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

What has happened to this initiative?

"MADRID, Nov. 15 2012 (Xinhua) -- The Spanish government approved on Thursday emergency measures to suspend home evictions in Spain which have caused several suicides since the economic crisis started in the country.

The government announced that evictions will stop for two years for the most vulnerable homeowners and a "fund of houses" with cheap rental accommodation will be set up for those who have already lost their homes.

Spain's Minister of Economy and Competitiveness Luis de Guindos said the government will negotiate with banks over rentals of the properties.

People who can see their evictions suspended for two years will have to fulfill certain social and economic conditions, including a threshold of household disposable income not exceeding 1,596 euros per month.

Last Monday, the Spanish Banking Association (AEB) said it would stop evictions for two years of people unable to pay their mortgages in cases of extreme necessity."

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 11:31:22

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Munin)

quote:

You really believe the problems Andalucía and Spain has are because of "democracy"?

Yes... And there was a reason I wrote "democracy" and not democracy. Democracy, the thing they try to make us believe exist, doesnt exist anymore and hasnt existed for decades. What is happening now all over the western world is a result of that.

Escribano:
Untill now its been mostly words and very few can, acording to meassurements, be considered vulnerable.
Its a typical "democratic" solution. Lots of demagogical attitudes and words and very little reality. It only touches a max of 10% of the ones thrown out

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 11:40:38

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

En ABC Sevilla 20minutos.es

"Un hombre se suicida en Córdoba tras recibir una carta de desahucio"

Así es España.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 11:46:59

pbekkerh

Posts: 34
Joined: Dec. 11 2012

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/in-spain-locksmiths-refuse-to-cooperate-with-foreclosures-and-evictions/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 12:04:03

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Yes, there were demostrations etc. But they have still thrown and average of 45 families out on the streets a day during 2013 in Andalucia.
There´s always a lot of talking, debate etc. But facts are facts.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 13:11:26

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

It sucks. With the massive property glut in Spain... it is a crime.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 15:09:24

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

That is a pretty shocking statistic. You think it's democracy itself or the people running the democracy, seems to me like crooked people within a semi-capitalist system is a big part of the problem. Maybe these people could never afford a home to begin with and were preyed upon by greedy lenders.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 15:38:01

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Those are indeed disturbing figures. Loosing my (rental) house is one of my biggest fears as well. When i graduated as a flamenco guitar teacher (the 3th official one wold wide) Rotterdam local government refused to give me the usual financial support for (partly) unemployed people. According to them "musicians didn't fit the picture because there were no official jobs for musicians, so they couldn't actually be regarded unemployed/work-seeking". After i was able to convince them there was something called "music schools" (providing official jobs for music teachers like me) they reluctantly agreed, but immediately found another reason to reject me.... a dancing schools did pay me gross and according to them "musicians being payed gross" were officially regarded "to be there own boss" witch was an other department. That other department rightfully send me back to the first one and the end result was that i had to sue social welfare for wrongfully refusing to support me.

The funny thing is they refused to pay me because as a musician i was payed gross at a dancing school which according to them made me "my own boss" and as such not an employe fitting there terms of conditions". The fact the dancing school was closed the upcoming mounds didn't matter because i was planning to work there again in future..... So if i stop working there in future you will pay me right away?.....no because then you will be voluntary unemployed wouldn't you ?.....but didn't you just state i'm rejected because according to you i don't fit the official working relationship you constantly refer to? How can i quite a boss/employe situation that according to you i don't have in the first place?.......well, uh....?????? you got met there..... so yes, if you plan to stop to work there we have to give you the money after all..... Do you realize that when i stop working there you have to pay me way more than the 0-50 a month i'm asking/needing right now......Yes i do, but since we are spending millions and millions of euro's an "additional" 500,- a month means totally nothing to us, all we we care about are principles.

After i told him his principles were crap (and on top against the law) and that i had no intention to stop playing at that flamenco school he rejected my financial claim. It took me 9 mounts to win that battle in court, 9 mounds i had to depend completely on my income as a musician/part time postman. If i had become ill in that period i was in serious risk of running out of money and being kicked out of my department myself. Fortunately all went well, but i realize ever since how quickly things can go wrong. Nobody beliefs/understands the problems i had because in general opinion social welfare is a good working system to fit all situations....well it isn't. On national television other victims of the system are quite often believed to fail them self because people simply can't believe there stories. 1 guy didn't get welfare because he worked 10 meters over the border before he was fired (but they gladly collected his tax for years, including insurance for situations like this). Another guy lost his rental house because he was hospitalized for a couple of mounds and social welfare forgot they still had to pay his rent in the meantime.

My granddad lost his family when he opened his house to numerous homeless people. I guess it runs in the family because i once run in serious problems of being kicked out of my rental department myself when i gave shelter to a homeless person who didn't mind the neighbors and me as much as i hoped for (i later gave shelter to a guy that was indeed kicked out of his rental department after giving illegal shelter to that very same person after i got finally write of here). Not a period of my life i like to think of with pleasure, although it probably did improve my flamenco.

Dude to re-organisations i'm probably going to loose my job in near future. They can refuse welfare when you refuse to except other work offered...but they can also refuse welfare when you take the risk of excepting new work before you're officially fired and loose that new job after a standard trial period. So no matter what choice you make, problems are always lurking.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 16:03:23

Morante

Posts: 2179
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Leñador)

Hey Popeye

U couldn´t be more right: the banks lent money way above the income of the client. But when he lost his job the bank reposessed his house and he still had to keep paying his mortgage.

We have the most corrupt set of politicians you could possibly imagine: they removed the only judge who was investigating corruption, have cut education, health services, are privatising public hospitals, cut home help to elderly people, reduced salaries, increased working hours etc, etc.

Still, Carnival in Cádiz; the opium of the people.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 16:38:47

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

It's real simple. Some top bankers need to spend a lot of time in jail doing hard body breaking labor until they are physically and mentally broken. Because that is what they deserve for stealing from hard working people.

I was at a fiesta about 5-6 years ago of some local flamenco dance students. One of them work for a mortgage company and invited coworker. The coworker was a guy. He stood there with his beer asking me if I knew any of the 'dancer sluts' at the party. That pissed me off right there. Then I asked him what he did, he said he brokered sub-prime mortgages, but that he was unemployed at the moment. He said he was going to get a new job soon and I asked if he thought it was immoral to do the same job. He said no and even though mortgage crisis was in full bloom and we knew it was hurting families he said it was "still a great way to make money."

My mom had just lost her home due to the effects of guys like this. I don't really know how I did it, but I was able to summon the will not to punch him out. I left the party.

It's politicians with no guts who allow guys like that to be in that industry. It's really a monster, but who can really slay it? Those bankers who lend this way should be put in jail, but there are not strong enough regulations and the regulations have crept and crept more in favor of bankers who can abuse.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 20:21:57

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

It's real simple. Some top bankers need to spend a lot of time in jail doing hard body breaking labor until they are physically and mentally broken. Because that is what they deserve for stealing from hard working people.

I don't think bankers are blameless and I hate misogynistic a-holes as much as the next guy, but if you're about to borrow a huge amount of money - you better make damn sure you can afford to pay it back (or suffer the consequences).

The people who blindly followed the banks 'recommendation' without doing their own calculations also deserve some blame.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 21:59:07

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to chester)

quote:

I don't think bankers are blameless and I hate misogynistic a-holes as much as the next guy, but if you're about to borrow a huge amount of money - you better make damn sure you can afford to pay it back (or suffer the consequences).

The people who blindly followed the banks 'recommendation' without doing their own calculations also deserve some blame.

That is not the point. The products they sell were unethical. Period. Wait till your relative loses a home. Those guys should be going to jail.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 22:05:38

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

What was going on at least here in LA was flat out illegle. I know people that were involved with it. They were helping people lie about there income, referring them to places that helped generate fake check stubs etc... In the US we have laws to help protect, for lack of a better term stupid people(not at all saying everyone that lost their home is stupid). We have seat belt laws, helmet laws, J-walking laws etc.... As well as laws that protect consumers from being deceived. I feel like laws should be in place to keep people from financing homes that can not afford to finance homes/ homes out of their price range. Most people can not figure out what they can afford on their own, they just can't. If we let them buy out of their financial capabilities we'll have this problem all over again.

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 22:58:24

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to chester)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester

quote:

It's real simple. Some top bankers need to spend a lot of time in jail doing hard body breaking labor until they are physically and mentally broken. Because that is what they deserve for stealing from hard working people.

I don't think bankers are blameless and I hate misogynistic a-holes as much as the next guy, but if you're about to borrow a huge amount of money - you better make damn sure you can afford to pay it back (or suffer the consequences).

The people who blindly followed the banks 'recommendation' without doing their own calculations also deserve some blame.

Sad but true. And I have also known people who's true agenda is to sell the place when the value goes up and run with the money they make on it (ie leave the USA with no intent to return) after sale of home...I saw some plans like that bomb when interest rates went up. Oooops. People should not try to take advantage in either direction it hurts everybody. It is always a gamble to take a loan you can't pay back immediately. At least it is to pessimists like me LOL. In some cases, lenders are doing their darndest to get nice people their dream home...at which time the buyers are not preparing for the worst and only thinking big positive happy thoughts and long term. Of course there were just too many examples where lenders knew darn well what was gonna happen to people that planned to stay in their homes long term and didn't warn them clearly the potential dangers, or at least recommend them the best time to get out.

During the whole bubble thing many smart people where telling me they were waiting for the bubble to burst to snatch up foreclosed homes. That was long ago... so it's not just lender's doing, it's a whole racket.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 8 2013 23:12:41

chester

Posts: 891
Joined: Oct. 29 2010

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

That is not the point. The products they sell were unethical. Period. Wait till your relative loses a home. Those guys should be going to jail.

Hey man I'm sorry about your mother and I'm definitely not implying she's at fault. I just wanted to point out that the whole mortgage crisis is more complex than just the "bankers'" fault.

quote:

They were helping people lie about there income, referring them to places that helped generate fake check stubs etc...

I'm sorry but if you lied about your income in order to get a loan you have no right to complain when it gets foreclosed.

If you can't sit down and figure out how much you can afford, maybe you shouldn't be buying a house?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 1:56:17

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

If you can't sit down and figure out how much you can afford, maybe you shouldn't be buying a house?

Do you know how many stupid people there are?? Enough to cause the longest recession in US history. I agree, people should, but they never will and their stupidity will affect us always. Then people that can afford it loose their jobs and so the snowball continues.........

_____________________________

\m/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 2:04:21

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

There are many histories here of banks that have made illegal mortgages. Like lenting out 110 - 120% of the value of the house.
It is of course stupid to accept that kind of loans, but there are many stupid people in the world and we have laws to protect them against greedy persons (read banks)

It is illegal to make mortgages that high, but nothing happens. The banks are never touched.

Another thing is that in many cases the value of houses is now some 40% below the value of their mortgages
These 40% we have to pay to the banks. And we will never see them again. During a very short period, these unreal prices (the bubble) were created and the banks are making enourmous profits on that. Still, they whine, throw people on the streets and Spain gets payed 60 billions of euros from the EU in order to save the banks. What is important is to save the countrys totally sick and corrupt political and economical system.

In my eyes, politicians and bankiers are the lowest social caste. They have totally lost any kind of dignity they may once have had.

But I can see from some of the replies here and from what other people living outside Spain have told me, that the Spanish government has succeded in making the rest of the world believe that they are doing something about the enourmos social problems that the country are having. Its one BIG lie but so typical of politicians. Besides, the housing and banking issues, unemployment is still going up. 26% in the country and 60 - 65% amongst young people under 26 living in andalucia. Prices and taxes are going up a lot. we have political scandals all the time. Strikes all the time ETC.

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 8:28:10

brandoscostumes

Posts: 47
Joined: Aug. 28 2010

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lenador

quote:

If you can't sit down and figure out how much you can afford, maybe you shouldn't be buying a house?

Do you know how many stupid people there are?? Enough to cause the longest recession in US history. I agree, people should, but they never will and their stupidity will affect us always. Then people that can afford it loose their jobs and so the snowball continues.........

the majority of blame has to be with the government since they set the rules the banks are supposedly playing by. anytime the government interferes it creates unwanted side-effects and the example of 'affordable housing' is clear as day and goes back decades. rent control leads to reduced supply/inflated prices which physically drives out the people they were designed to help (e.g. blacks in san francisco) and reduced credit requirements (no down payment, no job, etc) lead to an explosion of risky mortgages. the public outrage is misdirected; otherwise they would vote out politicians who create these problems out of thin air. no place is more exemplary of this than bankrupt high-tax high-regulation california.
the weird thing about the spanish crisis is that in every pueblo no matter how small there are still dozens of luxury item shops (i.e. that exclusively sell handbags, shoes, clothes) that are staying in business.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 10:08:59

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

In my eyes, politicians and bankiers are the lowest social caste. They have totally lost any kind of dignity they may once have had.

unfortunately this is the truth!

and it is as true as the fact that if you take for example my country ( Italy) the economic situation is perhaps even worse than Spain, we have youth unemployment to 37%!.
Go see what the last Italian government did (soon we will have new elections): has arranged the banks, increased taxes and fiscal control!. All the rest of the business and economic sectors of the nation, was dying! and continue to die !.

Guys, the situation is really bad .... I hope that something will change for the better in a short time ! otherwise I do not know what will happen here in Europe (Italy, Spain and Greece in particular) .....
..... these three Countries have in common two groups of leading sectors: the structural one: sea and agriculture and the cultural one : art and tourism ..... so why let them die???..... why we have to pay almost two euro for just one quarter of gallon of gasoline so that people prefer to demolish a fishing boat instead of payng a lot of money for a full tank of gasoline to go fishing?

why do we have to buy german salad when we have the best soil in Europe?

why does our culture and every thing that goes with it, has to be so much close to the "anglo-saxon" one end not in the same way to other coultures from other countries close the mediterranean sea?

why we are those who have to pay this high price?

ciao,
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 11:00:04

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to brandoscostumes)

quote:

the weird thing about the spanish crisis is that in every pueblo no matter how small there are still dozens of luxury item shops (i.e. that exclusively sell handbags, shoes, clothes) that are staying in business.

I dont know the pueblos you know, but I can say that here in Beas, a village with 4500 inhabitants, you can buy cheapshit chinese handbags and shoes and if that is going to be considered luxury, then the whole world is living in luxury, because you can buy the same crap in whatever corner of the world.

In general shops are closing. The only ones that seem to survive is the ones selling food and there´s a lot of them. (struggling to survive)

_____________________________

Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 18:01:00

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Desahucios en Andalucia (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

This reminds me of a joke:

Q: What is the difference between a developer and an environmentalist?

A: An environmentalist already owns a house in the forest.

_______________

Apply to bankers and non bankers.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 9 2013 18:12:14