RE: Segovia and flamenco

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aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 31 2013 20:08:25

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 9:13:12

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

simply talent-free trash like around Warhol

Ah yeah, but his painting of a green car which was thought to sell for 35 mil. went for 70 mil. a few years ago. Obviously there is something else at work here that may not be taken into account by your philosophy.

From your preceding posts I would had thought that you knew of basics like capitalist marketing and how little that has to do with object-related clues like proficiency required for a product.

-

You guys think to be intellectual by equalling clumsy garbage with demanding pieces of art, while in the same time unable to keep up most humble of coherency when trying to reject the monkey painting examples.

These did not serve to manifest apes creative ability.
They have been used to expose the baseless blurb of modern art galerists and experts who would attest the monkey works that very pseudo intellectual background that you are projecting here.
-

For something to be special enough to be labelled with a dedicated term like "art" it needs to provide two factors at least, which would be proficiency and idea.
Everything else is scorning actual artists who have invested the talent and exercise to produce culture products of a level not every one can ( let alone apes).

That is fundamentally different form a Pollock´s spilling on canvas and being pampered by abundant budgets of Cold War propaganda with the aim to counter Sovjiet specific realism art through disintigrating the subject altogether through the statement of art having to be everything and nothing.

Your apparent avantgarde thinking has been predefined historically by unrelated nonesense.

And your modern art bullsh!t has a great part of people with actual talent live the life of Spitzweg´s Poor Poet while mere connections produce rich "artist" and "painters" whose hands don´t even have the coordinatiive skills to qualify for the metiers basics.

Whats up with art academies anyway where folks spend years for learning how to control a brush or chisel?
Just close them and make grain silos out of them, if whatever clumsy and bovine make is supposed to be art anyway.
-

Why do you want to be intellectual by all means? Won´t the chicks be liking you without the silly jumbo mumbo?

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 9:33:02

machopicasso

Posts: 972
Joined: Nov. 27 2010

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Grisha, you may be right, I guess I need to work on letting go when people trash things i hold dear.

Maybe. Regardless, I profited from your take on Cage's 4:33.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 9:51:06

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

My take on 4'33' is that Cage is ....

See now was it so hard to do that rather than get all bent out of shape at people that don't like it who simply must not be comprehending the thing? It was actually kind of hard to push and poke to get that out of you.

I try to think like a Paleontologist trying to describe the life and times of a T-Rex by looking at his poo, while the majority tries their darndest to step over or around the stuff and move on with no care for the ancient creature (6000 years at least.

).

I put 12 tone row in "Atonal" category (even though on small scales you have options to evoke tonality or modality). What grisha says is when we think of that music it is not so interesting as when an other dimension of understanding is introduced. I feel the same about cante and other challenging musical taste issues. Most often atonal music, far removed from "modes" which are "Moody" sounds, evokes only one type of image....that part in the movie where we are all distressed or scared. A single color being conveyed. I sort of blame movies for this too. But I feel when discussing atonal music a super important element is glazed over, and it bugs me. Rhythm. Atonal composers feel compelled to be 'a rhythmic" as well, or at least not make extensive heavy use of interesting groovy "feel" type rhythms, which in theory could totally change the overall "color" and mood of a piece and make the compositional devices so much more accessible both to general audience, and more musically eclectic audiences as well. I am generalizing, but I have heard things done in this regard (more often by percussionist based composers), and it's like night and day to me. I admit, I am not so big fan of non-cool-rhythm compositions that are also tonal. But I don't see a balance in the "contemporary classical music" world. Focus is WAY too much on what is or isn't happening with notes/harmony.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 17:34:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

Check this one out then:

Carlos Chávez (1899-1978): Xochipilli, una musica azteca immaginaria, per 4 fiati e percussioni (1940).

Charming!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 20:13:55

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 23 2018 16:20:34

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 22:18:22

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 23 2018 16:20:44

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 22:28:37

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 23 2018 16:20:51

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 30 2013 22:42:37

orsonw

Posts: 1934
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

I am completely ignorant but I have enjoyed the musical discussion. I have even learnt something, thank you.

Being ignorant I found the following brief explanation helped me to begin to understand some of the terms e.g. modal,tonal,atonal,12 tone row etc..

http://solomonsmusic.net/tonality.htm

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 31 2013 10:24:32

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Well, you might be in luck here when I get around to making a video of his alegrias he taught me last year. He composed it for Ramon de Algeciras (his childhood friend and teacher) and asked me to record it for him as he has been having problems with his hands. Lots of great old school stuff I learned in it, little techniques and things he called "mechanisms" which I thought was cool. Of course I put my own twist on the final product but it was very inspiring to learn some one else's composition and record it for them. The coolest part was he had a unique fingering for an A chord that suddenly jumped out at me when I heard Antonio Reys (at the time) new CD and realized he did the same voicing several times in his own alegrias. It's like "really all these years and this is a standard thing I missed out on?". Great thing about flamenco is we are always learning.

Ricardo

can we hear this? is there a video? is it on your YouTube channel?

something good has to come out of all this!

[necro-post as this thread was linked to in the other currently (re)running necro-thread "Paco's masterpiece"]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 16 2023 21:34:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to mark indigo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Well, you might be in luck here when I get around to making a video of his alegrias he taught me last year. He composed it for Ramon de Algeciras (his childhood friend and teacher) and asked me to record it for him as he has been having problems with his hands. Lots of great old school stuff I learned in it, little techniques and things he called "mechanisms" which I thought was cool. Of course I put my own twist on the final product but it was very inspiring to learn some one else's composition and record it for them. The coolest part was he had a unique fingering for an A chord that suddenly jumped out at me when I heard Antonio Reys (at the time) new CD and realized he did the same voicing several times in his own alegrias. It's like "really all these years and this is a standard thing I missed out on?". Great thing about flamenco is we are always learning.

Ricardo

can we hear this? is there a video? is it on your YouTube channel?

something good has to come out of all this!

[necro-post as this thread was linked to in the other currently (re)running necro-thread "Paco's masterpiece"]

Hmm, I did in fact make an audio recording of it 10 years ago. It is on an old playlist not on my phone now. I will see what I can do to convert it to mp3 or something.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 17 2023 13:23:56

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

This is the thread where I kicked Ramon’s butt and was complimented via private message on how I cooly did it. Then for some reason deleted my arguments. And still disagree that you need 13 years of conservatory training to listen to the music of the Second Viennese school, that’s a crap opinion.

Since this thread a few years ago I had a conversation with an expert on Berg and Webern and he said my points were spot on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date May 25 2023 13:54:08