RE: Segovia and flamenco

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RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

The silence I compose kicks Cage's silence's azz any day.

Art.

I guess some people don't really get the concept.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 0:00:45

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 0:05:28

estebanana

Posts: 9352
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 0:09:12

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Did anyone listen to Gemini?

Yes, I listened to Gemini. And yes, I have heard other works by Cage in the past. I was exaggerating for effect when I called him a buffoon. More properly I meant works like 4’33” strike me as buffoonery.

And I will reiterate that a statement by a composer to the effect that he is writing a piece of music that he intends to be unplayable is preposterous. If you don’t think so, please be my guest for dinner. I know a great chef who has stated that he cooks meals that he intends to be uneatable.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 4:05:13

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

I like this thread a lot! It's like watching a tennis match.

Also should be discussed chance music, polytonal works and pieces that involved a radio receiver. And then connect it with Segovia and flamenco.

Go for it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 4:11:36

RibNibbler

Posts: 125
Joined: Mar. 18 2013
From: Kazakhstan

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

quote:

Also should be discussed chance music, polytonal works and pieces that involved a radio receiver

Or alien abduction or something like the following

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 6:12:49

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Analog frigids will always find something `better than sex´ to avoid personal reception of a shortcoming; and be it just the extraordinary vacuum in a burned bulb.

With all the mind blowing beauty in the world of music why should one care what folks create sans talent?

Cage, like Warhol, might have been a great bricklayer, who knows.

That is from all that I have heard of this atonal guy, except above link though, which I couldn´t audition as it is blocked with my darn connection.

Ruphus

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 15:44:34

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Myrrdin is often described on this foro as not being flamenco for using similar textural and thematic procedures. Funny that

From guitarbudda
Thanks for that. I had never heard of him and on my first listening the word "feral" came into my head. Not the usual falseta/rasg routine thankfully and maybe with a better guitar and attention to tone production...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 18:20:29

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 19:56:40

estebanana

Posts: 9352
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 20:11:59

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Thanks Steph... banana! I am still waiting for you to connect it with Segovia and flamenco!

By the way, do you know if Steve Reich made any Solo Compas tracks?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 20:34:41

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 27 2013 21:13:13

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Ole! Lacks contratiempos though.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 6:13:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Did anyone listen to Gemini?

THe first 6:25 was SO bad, it made me WANT to watch the Demon Seed again. The rest sounding identical to a piece my 3 year old improvised when I was drunk and he snuck into my practice room and turned on the piano. Soothing, but advil helps.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 6:54:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

Pandering to the lowest common denominator takes great skill.

Having first identified the prevailing concensus (Einsteins famous common sense ) it is NOT SUFFICIENT to avoid challenging shared preconceptions.

If one truly seeks to exploit them then one must judiciously confirm and reinforce their prejudices.

This should be both in one's public speaking as well as selection of material.

But when an artist gets too far along this path the work suffers. Not just in originality but also in quality.

There may be a connection to flamenco and Segovia there, or maybe just here.

But others must ponder this as the skill I mentioned above is one which, of course you know, I lack. And this is much to my chagrin as it is so admired both here and there. It lends such weight to ones arguments. And turns to fun debates which merely depresses me.

D. (Cue Steve Reich music for one hand clapping.)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 12:00:46

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

quote:

And I will reiterate that a statement by a composer to the effect that he is writing a piece of music that he intends to be unplayable is preposterous. If you don’t think so, please be my guest for dinner. I know a great chef who has stated that he cooks meals that he intends to be uneatable.

When Schuppanzigh, the violinist who headed the quartet that premiered Beethoven's works, complained to Beethoven that the first violin parts of one of Beethoven's quartets were too difficult to play and impossible technically, Beethoven just said to him:

Damn your fiddle, when I am working a melody I can't be bothered by the shortcomings of the violin.

So I guess Beethoven was preposterous.

Sorry, your logic is faulty, and so is your Beethoven analogy. If Beethoven in fact said what you quote, then he said he was writing a piece of music the way he heard it in his head, and if it should turn out to be difficult or even unplayable on the violin then that’s too bad etc. In other words he felt he had to write the music the way he felt it etc.

But he never said that he deliberately INTENDED it to be unplayable. That’s a totally different statement – one that would be . . . er . . . preposterous.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 12:47:59

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Did anyone listen to Gemini?

THe first 6:25 was SO bad, it made me WANT to watch the Demon Seed again. The rest sounding identical to a piece my 3 year old improvised when I was drunk and he snuck into my practice room and turned on the piano. Soothing, but advil helps.

What’s the matter with you Ricardo – you don’t like hearing the same note four thousand times in eleven minutes?

I guess “Gemini” is the counterpart to Cage’s 4’33”. One is four minutes of silence and the other is eleven minutes of the same note.

Sorry, stuff like this, along with the same nonsense from Philip Glass, is a sure antidote to insomnia.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 12:56:48

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 18:29:30

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 18:39:47

estebanana

Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

I want to drive a steel spike though my head right about now.

I can go up to Mills College where I did my graduate school and hang out and talk about this stuff with music dept. students not have to argue for the idea that a composer should be conceptually free. And even talk to people who like newer music. But I remember that being in an academic environment is much easier than the outside world where it is not friendly and warm and you are surrounded by those who know and understand your points of reference. It's lonely to be on the outside, I wish I had people to talk to and not have to contest what I enjoy. But I suppose that was the point of being there, that you leave and you have to make it real in the world. But it sucks an I want to drive a spike through my head half the time because there is really no one to talk to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:07:00

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

I've been at the conservatory for 13 years now, and hope to finish this weekend. I took all the composition classes I could find from 16th century counterpoint to modern times, studied all these composers, studied their techniques and tried to compose in their styles. I just prefer not to talk about it.

Yes, a composer is free to compose what he wants and how he wants. Just like a performer is free to play what he wants and how he wants. You just have to be prepared that you can't please everyone and there will be those who will not like or understand what you do. So, above all, it is about your personal satisfaction, your own journey. That's all there is to it. Nothing to discuss, attack or defend.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:20:09

Bulerias2005

Posts: 632
Joined: Jul. 10 2010
From: Minneapolis, MN

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

I am actually really surprised by how few classical guitarists compose and perform their compositions. Ralph Towner comes to mind, though. His stuff tends to be pretty good.

I also try to compose as much as I can in non-flamenco styles... my favorite one that I've written is called "The Lonely Tulip" (if anyone cares to check it out, I have a recording on YouTube).

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:28:38

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

quote:

not have to argue for the idea that a composer should be conceptually free

I remember a number of years ago a patron of the Philadelphia Orchestra commissioned a piece from Milton Babbit to be played by the orchestra in some kind of festival. Knowing this wasn't going to be easy they scheduled extra rehearsal time but in the end decided not to play the work I don't know if it ever saw the light of day but I doubt it. How many performances of Changes have there been? How may will be able to play Grisha's transcription of de Falla? If no one can play it, it doesn't exist. IMO

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:33:04

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

aeolus, trust me, my transcription is playable, but requires pretty advanced skill.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:35:50

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Could you demo that?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:41:29

Grisha

Posts: 1263
Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

Yes of course.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:45:44

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to RibNibbler)

It just sounded imposible the way it was described.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 19:50:25

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 20:24:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14819
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

In my opinion, composers should be allowed to think about whatever they want to think about with no rational constraints.

i disagree. We talking before about painting monkeys and such. The true art of quality needs to have some reference or it's just bull shyte. Children are free and plunk on piano. Very different from similar sounding "music"...or SHOULD be. Discipline for me is KEY to composition. Without it there is no true "freedom from constraints" as you imply. THe whole challenge of composing is in fact THAT, working WITHIN the constraints to be original. 4:33, is original? High art? It's exploiting a compositional device...the "rest". Yet, do you think the orchestra is "feeling" time here? I doubt it. A more sophisticated thing would be say a piece of similar style called "1:20" where an actual BEAT is felt and expressed by the performers vs a conductor looking at his watch. For me the performer of CAges piece is the watch, not the people so much. How about this for art. Steve Vai had the idea of a best of album all the track 7s from his collective body of recordings.... because he did something special always with those tracks. If you take any kind of music and notice all the magic that happens at 2:56 it is quite interesting artistically. Now Take all the performances of cages 4:33 and make a compilation of what occurs at 2:56 and I thing you'd be on to something interesting and deep. Imagine if Cage had inserted at 2:56 an Ab9 chord fortissimo, BOOM, then rest again. Very sophisticated. But anyway that's just me, I need some more sophistication or it IS insulting. The whole composing thing that is unplayable is equally silly as playing or improvising nonsense or super long rests with no meaning.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 28 2013 20:27:44