RE: Segovia and flamenco

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Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

That sounds good, Stephen, can you name some of these great composers that use proper voice leading but also reach high standards of composition?

Let me start: Juan Serrano, Fernando Carulli...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 15:06:02

aeolus

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Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Very few classical guitarists play their own composition. Here is one that is outstanding. No hand jive here and an innovative use of the capo. Like the gypsy hermanos I posted, he makes use of the highest reaches of the guitar which seems to be more common than before.

[image] [/image]

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 16:58:20

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Very few classical guitarists play their own composition. Here is one that is outstanding. No hand jive here and an innovative use of the capo. Like the gypsy hermanos I posted, he makes use of the highest reaches of the guitar which seems to be more common than before.

[image] [/image]

I'll wait for Erik to chime in on this dutch looking guy, but hardly a thing would describe this guy as "classical" IMO, except for his guitar. Hand jive=open string dissonance played all over to make fluid lines, his right hand 'clawing" at the strings on all those ami arps...and the string cross thing mixed with ligados is direct from flamenco. I am sure this guy studied some flamenco technique.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 18:15:36

aeolus

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Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Gee...tough crowd! He's Swedish actually and winner of the GFA competition establishes his classical credentials.
More hand jive?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 18:40:02

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

Moller is awesome. He came here to Tempe and played beautifully. His version of Barrios' "Un Sueno..." was a standout. One of the more musical guitarists I have ever heard. His own compositions were not particularly interesting to me. He also has some pretty good comedic timing and had the audience chuckling more than once while introducing pieces. That being said, very musical and not a single obvious missed note. When I ran into him in the lobby, I was surprised at how small and slight he was!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 18:56:33

Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

Gee...tough crowd! He's Swedish actually and winner of the GFA competition establishes his classical credentials.
More hand jive?

He is good, I meant that he is out of the classical mold by composing and doing more rhythmic peices and borrowing some flamenco ideas. (this tune even had some rasgueados). I would say based on this and the other piece he is into Roland Dyens, who also does these type of perpetual motion type modern pieces.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 19:06:49

gbv1158

Posts: 410
Joined: May 29 2009
From: Italy

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to BarkellWH)

quote:

I think that old European tradition might explain Segovia's personality and behavior more than anything else.

Bill, you are absolutely right!
and I would even add that in many (italian) conservatories, very few things are changed ( as in the specialized schools or universities), professors are "PROFESSORS" and students remain "students", we still have this type of approach with "the knowledge trasmission"......you know!....Italians for example have the so called syndrom of "Leonardo Da Vinci" :-) .... every one thinks to be his son! :-)

ciao,
giambattista

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 20:52:45

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

He is good, I meant that he is out of the classical mold by composing and doing more rhythmic peices and borrowing some flamenco ideas. (this tune even had some rasgueados). I would say based on this and the other piece he is into Roland Dyens, who also does these type of perpetual motion type modern pieces.

The original compositions sound A LOT like Brower, which he also played.

Whereas it is tempting to think that anything spanish sounding on the guitar comes from flamenco Brower had stated that his principle influence on orchestration for the guitar was this.

by the non guitarist composer Manuel de Falla. This was also the piece that inspired the Britten Nocturnal and the famous Invocacion Y Danza (subtitled Homenaje a Manuel de Falls ) by Rodrigo is a nod of the hat in this direction too.

Anyone who plays through any Leo Brower studies or concert works will see that his left hand approach was influenced by the work he did in rebuilding his technique after severe tendonitis curtailed a performing career. His willful exploration of open string sonorities forced a compositoanal style based on thematic and rhythmic structure within a quite often static harmonic pallette. They are superficially actually really easy to play, compared to say fretting every note but due to the musical demands of the pieces and the investment required in making sense of them they are really tough to pull off

Myrrdin is often described on this foro as not being flamenco for using similar textural and thematic procedures. Funny that.

Any way I just watched the two videos of the swedish dude and he is terrific, really enjoyed them.

Coincidentally I think I mentioned earlier in this thread that I liked Segovias interpretation of Frederick Mompou's suite Compostelana which is compositionaly very much in the same mould as the above mentioned.

I would recommend all of them.

I would also recommend Tuck Andress and Jim Hall and Fernando Sor for guitaristic use of considered voicing leading. Carulli though not so much.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 23 2013 23:55:41

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2013 3:01:59

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

Stephen, I already knew what you meant! Just joking! But your post was a good one and you always bring it here on the forum.

guitarbuddha, check out Margarita Escarpa's Mompou. She plays that suite just beautifully on her album, Elegia. She is another wonderfully expressive player.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2013 4:35:03

Erik van Goch

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From: Netherlands

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I'm not talking about what is proper, I'm talking about how a composer hears interval and melodic movement regardless of what is easy to reach in the hand.

My father once told me that the Assad's prefer composers to write music for them without considering the (im)possibilities of the instrument (leave that to us).... they maybe had to change 1 or two notes but managed to play all the rest.

One of my musical hero's (Erik Visser from Flairck) worked for years on arranging stars and stripes for solo guitar. His variations seemed totally unplayable and i thought he was completely crazy for trying it in the first place. But after a long struggle (studying it backstage during concerts) he finally included it in his stage performances and every time he played it i died of laughter...it was so hilarious, virtuoso and brave :-)

The same feeling i have when i watch the wonderful Kang Eunju

Yesterday my father recommended me to watch and enjoy this tremolo performance by the 11 year old Jennifer Kim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2013 13:27:49

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

Anybody here play Elliot Carter's Changes? Starobin commissioned it and there was stretch he thought few could make but Carter refused to modify it. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary but I guess it's not a felony for the performer to modify it. The music starts just after the 2 min mark.

There is difficult and impossible. And then there is Ferneyhough. I bought a copy of his guitar pieces out of curiosity and it's in facsimile but it is indistinguishable from printing or perhaps better. He is a supreme draftsman regardless of what one thinks of his er, music.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2013 14:33:02

Grisha

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Joined: Mar. 17 2005

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

In my transcription of Falla's Asturiana from Siete Canciones I play a half bar in the basses on the 1st fret and stretch to b on the first string. I thought it was a little difficult to play when I first came up with it, but I am sure in 5-10 years it will be the norm. I am definitely not changing it. Use the thumb over if you have to.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 24 2013 19:19:13

Miguel de Maria

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From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Grisha)

That actually hurts my wrist just to think about it!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2013 3:53:08

Paul Magnussen

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Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

My father once told me that the Assad's prefer composers to write music for them without considering the (im)possibilities of the instrument (leave that to us)....

I believe it was Presti/Lagoya that first said that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2013 14:32:17

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2013 19:27:24

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

*yawn*

Yeah I get up and have coffee and rip through this piece three or four times before I roll into the shop and start planing boards.

That bad eh?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 25 2013 19:51:45

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 4:59:07

aeolus

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Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

Did you jsut do that to show off? Because if you did....well don't get me started.

Nope. I was making a point about stretches and playability in general and now grisha
has upped the anti considerably. Taking another look at Changes videos this must be this chord Starobin was referencing:

Looks like D on top and G# on the bottom. The player on the video may be rolling it.

Ferneyhough said in an interview his object was to make the piece so difficult it couldn't be player without error.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 11:52:50

Ramon Amira

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From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

Ferneyhough said in an interview his object was to make the piece so difficult it couldn't be played without error.

Statements and intentions like that are imbecilic, preposterous, and furthermore are pretentious. It falls into the same category as John Cage’s idiotic and pretentious “composition” 4’33” which is four minutes and thirty three seconds of silence. These buffoons would like us to think that they have done something profound, when in reality they have only revealed themselves to be clowns.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 17:27:34

Miguel de Maria

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RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Ramon Amira)

I think a decent argument could be made that Cage's "composition" is not the worst music ever composed.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 17:46:52

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 19:17:47

Ramon Amira

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From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

Below is my review of his composition 4'33".

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 20:05:28

aeolus

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From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

que pasa?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 20:45:41

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 20:51:15

estebanana

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 20:56:38

Ramon Amira

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From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

quote:

Below is my review of his composition 4'33".

I think you are BS~ing.

I think you missed my point. I was reviewing Cage’s composition 4’33” which is four minutes and thirty three seconds of silence. A review with no words is an appropriate review of a composition with no music.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 23:03:51

Ramon Amira

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From: New York City

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

It would be too mad to simply dismiss him as a buffoon without really trying to hear his work.

“Hear his music?” Well, I tried to, but how do you hear four minutes and thirty three seconds of silence?

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 26 2013 23:06:00