RE: Segovia and flamenco

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Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

Estebanana-

No, I wasn't lumping you in with the uninformed or partially informed bad mouthers. A person's opinion about something objectively verifiable like a recorded perfomance is OK with me, whether or not I agree.

What I object to is sanctifying or condemning someone, based on anecdotal evidence. And yes, I consider interviews and the Segovia-Ponce letters to be anecdotal evidence of a complex character with an unusually long, very active life.

I've been intending to read Gilardino's biography in hopes of getting a balanced view. It's only available from Italian sources. Alfredo Lopez Poveda's two-volume Spanish effort is clearly a biased account by a good friend, who even says so himself. And it contains enough serious errors of fact to undermine my trust. For example, Lopez says that Rodrigo offered Segovia the opportunity to premier the Concerto de Aranjuez (!) while in fact the piece was commissioned for Regino Sainz de la Maza by a Spanish nobleman.

Sigh.

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 3:28:09

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 23 2018 16:06:06

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 19 2013 3:33:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

Then he showed me how to turn the etude into an abstraction so you could use it to practice arpeggios useful in flamenco, like in tarantos for example. He is a wonderful teacher. Wish I could remember more falsetas he showed me.

Well, you might be in luck here when I get around to making a video of his alegrias he taught me last year. He composed it for Ramon de Algeciras (his childhood friend and teacher) and asked me to record it for him as he has been having problems with his hands. Lots of great old school stuff I learned in it, little techniques and things he called "mechanisms" which I thought was cool. Of course I put my own twist on the final product but it was very inspiring to learn some one else's composition and record it for them. The coolest part was he had a unique fingering for an A chord that suddenly jumped out at me when I heard Antonio Reys (at the time) new CD and realized he did the same voicing several times in his own alegrias. It's like "really all these years and this is a standard thing I missed out on?". Great thing about flamenco is we are always learning.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 20 2013 10:20:32

rick

Posts: 56
Joined: Oct. 20 2003

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Kevin)

my understanding is that he thought flamenco was guitar basterdized at least thats what he told Parkening and would never let Parkening play any.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 24 2013 14:50:37

Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3430
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to rick)

On this forum

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=3845&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#3845

RNJ

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 25 2013 3:42:03

mark74

Posts: 690
Joined: Jan. 26 2011

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

On my wall I have a haunting old black and white photograph of 19th century gypsy guitarist Paco de Lucena who died an untimely death in his thirties. Supposedly Segovia's first guitar had been one of his.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 0:49:39

Sr. Martins

Posts: 3077
Joined: Apr. 4 2011

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

@Ricardo

TAB us that voicing

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 0:55:08

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guitarbuddha

Bearing all that in mind a few years ago I went back and listened to all Segovia. Spent about two weeks listening to it every day whilst running. It was hard work. Lots of shallow self indulgent readings of half baked pieces. Some creditable Castlenuevo Tedesco, dreadful Bach, the excellent Mompou I mentioned above. There was no Britten, no Frank Martin no Walton.

True there was a lot of colour. But there was also an awful lot of changing colour in the middle of a line, ruining the line. Trampling on the structure and harmonic rhythm. A lot of the time it seemed that he was just trying to use the pieces to show off his style and to hell with the form. ME ME ME his playing says.

Your remark about changing color in the middle of a line (ruining the line) reminds me to a similar remark i made in this link, claiming that in Segovia's world the distinction between important and less important notes was not linked to musical function and melodic importance but to the question "can i make this note sound great". Notes that offered the guitars best possible sound often received his major attention (like it was blasfemie to deny the audience any less) but this preoccupation with sound (favoring the best sounding notes over others) structurally undermined melody/rhythm/interpretation. Since he gave "the Segovia treat" to all pieces they all end up sounding the same, with indeed little or no attention for style and composition.

At the time Segovia was second to none as far as sound was concerned and he opened the eyes of a whole generation by showing the full and unexpected sound potential of the guitar. But his over-fixation on producing "the best possible sound" makes it impossible to me to enjoy his recordings (as far as i can remember i never did). Segovia was very proud that he was a self made man, but in retrospect that was also his weakness (as far as form and interpretation is concerned). But like i said, he did show us the full and at the time unexpected sound potential of the guitar so he certainly deserves a place in history.

there was quite a stir about my remarks in this treat.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=205171&mpage=2&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=ramirez

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 10 2013 14:38:39

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

This is one of the finest review I have ever read about Segovia and the meaning of his contribution to guitar and classical music.
From Michelob.

That is silly beyond belief. You are talking about a concert artist that had a career spanning almost an entire century and that had an undeniable artistic reputation. His life and origins have been investigated from his earliest days and numerous books tracing his life have been published. All this swept aside by a few lines from a flamenco player! Laughable. But you did say from what you have read which obviously is very, very little.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 17:24:39

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 23 2018 16:06:36

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 17:53:30

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

quote:

The coolest part was he had a unique fingering for an A chord that suddenly jumped out at me when I heard Antonio Reys (at the time) new CD and realized he did the same voicing several times in his own alegrias.

Could yoo tab that out to see? I think I know which one, just want to see it.

E--------------------(0)--
B---------------(0)------
G----------6-------------
D------7-----------------
A---4---------------------
E-5-----------------------

The open strings that make 9th and 5th optional but you get the idea, you can move it up to B maj by slide it 2 frets up...but just the strings 6 to 3 have a nice open voicing with no 5th.

quote:

All this swept aside by a few lines from a flamenco player! Laughable.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2013 19:53:10

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

This is one of the finest review I have ever read about Segovia and the meaning of his contribution to guitar and classical music.
From Michelob.

That is silly beyond belief. You are talking about a concert artist that had a career spanning almost an entire century and that had an undeniable artistic reputation. His life and origins have been investigated from his earliest days and numerous books tracing his life have been published. All this swept aside by a few lines from a flamenco player! Laughable. But you did say from what you have read which obviously is very, very little.

Dude... what's your problem? That wasn't very nice... Chill out...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 13:10:19

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Dude... what's your problem? That wasn't very nice... Chill out...

Is this forum supposed to contain no contrary views? Are the members here some assembly of bobble heads expected to nod agreement to any specious statement?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 17:02:45

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

**bobling head** Yes! Haha

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 17:40:13

FredGuitarraOle

Posts: 898
Joined: Dec. 6 2012
From: Lisboa, Portugal

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Dude... what's your problem? That wasn't very nice... Chill out...

Is this forum supposed to contain no contrary views? Are the members here some assembly of bobble heads expected to nod agreement to any specious statement?

No, it is not. In fact, this place is the land of disagreement.

The thing is, your comment had little content and a lot of disregard for the opinions of two Foro members. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with your opinion and I respect it. However, I do have a problem when you say to other members that their comments are "laughable" and "silly beyond belief".

My previous comment was just to remind you that you can express your opinion without such contempt for others.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 19:14:20

rickm

Posts: 446
Joined: Jan. 23 2004

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

ricardo does anyone actually play those kind of chords? I mean how could you change to that efficiently?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 19:20:12

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

My contempt is for their shallow assessment of an artist who was a giant in the field . If they don't know anything or very little they should not offer their opinions as if they were formed by due consideration. And then for another uniformed to heap praise on the first is condescending I would think. If sounds as if Mich is sucking up to Ricardo.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 19:35:35

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

ricardo does anyone actually play those kind of chords? I mean how could you change to that efficiently?

Interesting chord voicings are done constantly in flamenco, I don't know much classical but I would assume it's the same. Sometimes you want a G in the bass of your Bb you know?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 21:17:30

estebanana

Posts: 9351
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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2013 23:17:17

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

Aeolus you are the third person to defend respect as a right for absent dead third parties only to launch into personal attacks on real live foro members.

I got a degree in classical guitar, teach, have played with orchestras and showbands and occasionally concertise. I also have more than a passing aquaintance with flamenco and other styles.

However the REAL experts have a few old vinyls as dusty as their techniques.

Happy trolling.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 6:31:05

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

However the REAL experts have a few old vinyls as dusty as their techniques.

I have more than a few vinyls but few Segovia as I wore them out playing them. And I have probably every book in English written about AS but I don't in anyway consider myself an expert. I haven't read any posts on this thread to convince me that there are ANY experts on Segovia here.

Happy trolling

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 9:32:29

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

I haven't read any posts on this thread to convince me that there are ANY experts on Segovia here.

Recently on a Kiss forum a participant complained that there were people involved with a discussion who probably weren't at home wearing Kiss t-shirts.

Imagine the shame !!!!!!!

If I read a music book usually it will usually be on a music stand. I don't have any interest in being a Segovia expert, but I feel that I have the right to share my opinions in a public forum without being subject to the levels of rudeness which I experienced on this thread.

And the mind numbing predictability of the demographic of the Segovia Mafia...... Don't read any more biographies guys, pick up your guitar, get a David Russel Cd. learn to appreciate syncopation, Keith Richard is a good start.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 10:49:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

My contempt is for their shallow assessment of an artist who was a giant in the field . If they don't know anything or very little they should not offer their opinions as if they were formed by due consideration. And then for another uniformed to heap praise on the first is condescending I would think. If sounds as if Mich is sucking up to Ricardo.

How is going into fingering details shallow? Why do you assume myself and Giacomo are uninformed regarding Segovia? Why do think a non musician's book or multiple books on a an actual player is expert information? Sounds more like a huge fan that doesn't want to hear a single solitary negative comment about the maestro especially coming from a lowly flamenco player. Anyway, I didn't start the topic, but should be allowed to comment on AS even if it were true that I DIDN'T know a million more things about him than you do.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 12:09:21

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

I didn't mean to say what you said was shallow in detail, just that in the context to the man's career it was far too brief to merit the gushing praise it received.

Those here that say Segovia slowed down;was not mindful of color ; or had stubby fingers might want to test your mettle on this passage fingered to keep the bass line on the fifth string.

Mystery man: how did he fool all those composers and fans into thinking he was a superior artist.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 12:22:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

I didn't mean to say what you said was shallow in detail, just that in the context to the man's career it was far too brief to merit the gushing praise it received.

Those here that say Segovia slowed down;was not mindful of color ; or had stubby fingers might want to test your mettle on this passage fingered to keep the bass line on the fifth string.

Concise, and shallow have quite different meanings.

This passage from Chaconne is a good example where a guitar's scale length might make a difference.

quote:

Mystery man: how did he fool all those composers and fans into thinking he was a superior artist.

Simple. Talk smack about (or pretend they don't exist) those that were frighteningly close to his technical level on guitar, and bad mouth other genres, so it was clear who is superior and what separates high art from low art.

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www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 12:42:55

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Concise, and shallow have quite different meanings.

This passage from Chaconne is a good example where a guitar's scale length might make a difference.

Now you'r splitting hairs.

I am certain that AS's Ramirez had a 650 scale length which would have been the instrument he first performed the piece.. But I'll double check. I have Parkening's vinyl I think and from a long ago memory he has a notable pause when he hits that chord.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 12:51:52

Ricardo

Posts: 14801
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeolus

quote:

Concise, and shallow have quite different meanings.

This passage from Chaconne is a good example where a guitar's scale length might make a difference.

Now you'r splitting hairs.

I am certain that AS's Ramirez had a 650 scale length which would have been the instrument he first performed the piece.. But I'll double check. I have Parkening's vinyl I think and from a long ago memory he has a notable pause when he hits that chord.

Parkening probably uses Ramirez III, 664 or bigger is normal. No pausing allowed.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 12:59:32

aeolus

Posts: 765
Joined: Oct. 30 2009
From: Mier

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to Richard Jernigan)

quote:

Parkening probably uses Ramirez III, 664 or bigger is normal. No pausing allowed.

From what he has written I think so. He said he would go to Sherry-Brener who was the US distributor and play all in stock and select the best. I notice recent videos of him playing Bach he has a capo at the first fret. Also Russell and while Amigo doesn't play classical I don't think I have ever seen a video where he didn't have a capo at the first. I would think for the Chaconne the loss of resonance from a capo would be
a minus while a change in color would be better by far than pausing.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 13:19:26

C. Vega

Posts: 379
Joined: Jan. 16 2004

RE: Segovia and flamenco (in reply to aeolus)

Segovia premiered his transcription of the Chaconne in 1935 at which time he was still playing his 1912 Manuel Ramirez guitar (now in the Metropolitan Museum of Art) which has a 655mm scale length.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2013 13:32:30