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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas.
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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 RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)
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Ricardo,
Maybe it was worth it to you, but it's not always to me. It's not wrong either, to call something deluded if you see it that way. And I'm learning patience for those who can't distinguish between depression and looking at something and seeing the aspects of delusion in it.
See the thing is people try to impose their own value judgments on others experience and you can't just do that. For me I think this is making me unhappy and I'm saying good bye to it. For you it works. Unfortunately I have invested a lot into it and it's difficult to simply cut and run.
Maybe Anders needs to look at what he thinks is delusion, that is his process. All I'm saying is I can kind if get where he is at, although I can't know his mind. It's a problem in the US, especially, people want everything to be *happy happy* and when someone does some soul searing for a few months or a period of time to get from one place to an other you get called depressed or not thinking right or told to go live under a freeway.
Sometimes when you see a friend going through something telling them to be happy is not a great thing to do, maybe just sitting with them and relating is more important. The process they are going through won't be helped by calling them negative. Perhaps just acknowledging the process is important.
Basically I see a chink between two huge boulders and I'm trying to squeeze between them to get to the bigger space other side. Not everything is going to fit through the crack in the rocks.
So as Steve Martin would say: "Exxcuuse meeeee! for emotionally farting on ya'll's parade. Not the first time someone has had difficultly making a transition. And I sense Anders is doing something similar and what I'm really waiting to see is what he becomes when he eats his way out of his caccoon. I could care less if he remains steadfast about flamenco or not, it's what ever he becomes that is correct for him.
Suffering is based on wanting something you can't have. Sometimes we have to go through a long, long process to let go of something we can't have. It can take months or years. When you can finally let most of the desire go the suffering lessens. Anders discontent on the surface could be about flamenco, but perhaps underneath it is about letting go of things he no longer has. Flamenco might just be the cat getting existentially kicked around, I'm willing to listen and wait and see what happens.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 15 2013 0:00:59
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
Good grief. Look you guys are so negative and it's so Fing wrong attitude. Bringing people down. I heard this same stuff, this same diatribe 16 years ago when I first ventured out into this thing seriously. Was it a lie to pretend it was worth doing? To learn more about a dying art? To be foreigner? Man I heard all this crap and if I had believed it THEN I would have had to hang up my guitar or done some other style of music...and missed out on what exactly? Need I go into detail? I never would have thought I would have been so bold to not think twice about playing for Diego Agujeta in that bar in sanlucar in front of a bunch of flamenco nerds, including antonio carrion etc...not even giving a crap if I did badly or embarrassed my american ass. Why build a guitar even? sheeeesh man. Later I snagged the op to make a live cd with jesus montoya...I don't care about the negative feedback or if I am not even spanish or that jesus is not as good as Manolo Caracol. Or the chance encounter to accompany esperanza fernandez???
Point is if I didnt believe the "lie" I told myself all those years ago, I would never have been so lucky to experience the REALITY of flamenco and it's VERY ALIVE culture and art. And trust me, I am really NO DIFFERENT than you guys, I have had doubts and negativity and depression and experience pain and loss and all that crap. Let it go, carry on and put the heart in and BELIEVE THE LIE...it WILL pay off trust me.
Ricardo
Could you please stop now Ricardo. I had promised myself to stay away from the general section, but I like that you keep on throwing things against me. so here´s a final post.
What you get as being negative is something you create yourself. Its your mirror and it has nothing to do with us. You want to live a lie you say, you even scream it is. Then of course, you get a problem when someone is talking about reality because it takes you away from your lie.
Go back and read what Morante wrote about flamenco in Cadiz, what Estella wrote about Jerez and what I wrote about Huelva (and partly Sevilla). There are absolutely NO BAD INTENTIONS in what we wrote. Its only describing things the way they are. Not lying, not polishing up some worn out wreck. Just the plain, straight story.
This you call being negative... You are the one creating the negative atmosfere because you want to live a lye and cant accept reality.
I dont want to live a lie, I want to live here and now, in reality. I understood that what I was writing was considered bad energy, so I decided to leave, because I want to live in the real world.
This forum is so far away from reality and it cannot accept input from real world. Thats why I leave. Not because I dont like flamenco, not because I cant accept the attacks on my person, but because I dont belong here anymore. My version of the flamenco world is not being accepted. (but its all I can give. sorry)
But dont worry, I saw it comming. This I think you call an anounced divorce in english. But as all divorces they always take place a bit to late.
So I leave (at least for a while) and hope the forum will go on and continue the best it can. It has been an important place for me, so I wish and all its members the very best.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 15 2013 8:06:22
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to zata)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zata
quote:
I saw Diego Carrasco once during the Dutch flamenco biënnale in Amsterdam......
Erik, I presented that show in Amsterdam with a half-hour conference (perhaps you were even there), and later reviewed it: https://www.deflamenco.com/revista/paginai.jsp?codigo=2211
In both the conference and the review I struggled to give perspective to what Diego does. You're a hard sell, but read the short review and give Diego another chance.
Maybe he is just the "all or nothing" kind of guy and luck decides witch side of the coin you see. I visited a concert ones with 2 singers, 2 dancers and 1 guitarist. The guitarist only played 4 types of rasgueado but he used them so well i'd prefer him over every other player i know. The first concert i attended 1 singer and 1 dancer really stand out so i decided to go a second time...i also notified my former teacher Ricardo to see the show and as it turned out he already had. Funny enough he favored the other dancer and the other singer.
When i visited the show a second time a couple of days later i did indeed see a "totally different" show. First of all it was a day-time performance (not the best time for nocturnal flamenco performers) and even worse that bloody Chasse theater in Breda also sold tickets including a diner arrangement which turned out to be held in front of the artists during the show. Lucky enough the dining people did not disturb the stage activities to much and they basically did the same show as i saw earlier that week in Rotterdam. But the outcome was totally different.....my favorite singer was out of voice (probably not a morning guy) and when my favorite dancer was ready to enjoy his 10 minutes of fame........nothing happened.
The thing was that they combined two totally different types of dancers, 1 was properly schooled, applying drilled technique and fixed choreographies, the other was a self made man who fallowed his impulses and completely depended on the spirit of the moment and at that particular moment the spirit was zero. So he stand there, and stand, and stand and nothing came out of him that day.
Personally i love flamenco the best when it's honest and comes straight from the heart (or even better ones subconsciousness). That doesn't happen on command, it's the spirit of the moment. Question remains if you are a two faced coin (all or nothing) or still have something to offer when the spirits fail to guide you.
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Date Jan. 15 2013 11:39:12
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Erik van Goch
Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
quote:
Good grief. Look you guys are so negative and it's so Fing wrong attitude. Bringing people down. I heard this same stuff, this same diatribe 16 years ago when I first ventured out into this thing seriously. Was it a lie to pretend it was worth doing? To learn more about a dying art? To be foreigner? Man I heard all this crap and if I had believed it THEN I would have had to hang up my guitar or done some other style of music...and missed out on what exactly? Need I go into detail? I never would have thought I would have been so bold to not think twice about playing for Diego Agujeta in that bar in sanlucar in front of a bunch of flamenco nerds, including antonio carrion etc...not even giving a crap if I did badly or embarrassed my american ass. Why build a guitar even? sheeeesh man. Later I snagged the op to make a live cd with jesus montoya...I don't care about the negative feedback or if I am not even spanish or that jesus is not as good as Manolo Caracol. Or the chance encounter to accompany esperanza fernandez???
Point is if I didnt believe the "lie" I told myself all those years ago, I would never have been so lucky to experience the REALITY of flamenco and it's VERY ALIVE culture and art. And trust me, I am really NO DIFFERENT than you guys, I have had doubts and negativity and depression and experience pain and loss and all that crap. Let it go, carry on and put the heart in and BELIEVE THE LIE...it WILL pay off trust me.
Ricardo
Could you please stop now Ricardo. I had promised myself to stay away from the general section, but I like that you keep on throwing things against me. so here´s a final post.
What you get as being negative is something you create yourself. Its your mirror and it has nothing to do with us. You want to live a lie you say, you even scream it is. Then of course, you get a problem when someone is talking about reality because it takes you away from your lie......
This forum is so far away from reality and it cannot accept input from real world. Thats why I leave. Not because I dont like flamenco, not because I cant accept the attacks on my person, but because I dont belong here anymore. My version of the flamenco world is not being accepted. (but its all I can give. sorry)......
So I leave (at least for a while) and hope the forum will go on and continue the best it can. It has been an important place for me, so I wish and all its members the very best.
Regardless if Ricardo is fighting windmills or not, he is doing the same thing you do, giving HIS version of the flamenco world (that's all he can do as well) and you seem equally reluctant to embrace his version as he is in embracing yours. In my opinion Ricardo isn't throwing things against YOU, he is just expressing his feelings in the same way you express yours and just like there is a difference in opinion there is a difference in personal style.
One of the reasons you mentioned to leave the foro is that you feel your version of the flamenco world is not being accepted, or to say it more strongly not even wanted. I don't feel it that way at all (i embrace your input as much as i embrace Ricardo's) but as far as the "my version of the flamenco world is not being excepted/wanted" part is involved...... as far as i can remember Ricardo never said "Anders could you please stop now", it was you telling him so it seems to me that the mirror you mentioned works in both directions and that you take things way more personal than intended.
I can't change how you feel, i can only hope your decision will give you what you hope it will give you. I welcome any of your input in future and if not, well we both know there is a (flamenco) world outside the foro, a changing world but still.
For now i wish you all the best and for what it's worth, i believe in friendship after divorce :-)
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Date Jan. 15 2013 17:14:06
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to chester)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chester
quote:
the chance encounter to accompany esperanza fernandez???
On a side note - a friend of mine used to work at Esperanza's school in Sevilla. I told him about the foro and that you posted a video
from the show with her. He replied that he heard about it from her afterwards, and that she said that you were a great accompanist.
Hey thanks for sharing that publicly, it means a lot. I forgive you spotify-ing me now. 
Honestly, even if she had said I sucked and it proves that americans suck at flamenco and
that flamenco was dead...it still wouldn't have taken away from the fact I felt lucky, honored and
PRIVILEGED to have even HAD the opportunity and the experience to try. The conditions of the
world might suck, and we all have to go through crap, but it can be what we make of it in the end.
I feel compelled to share that while it might look bad, if you make an effort and have a positive
experience, it totally equals out the crap and makes it all worth it.
I know Anders and others going through a tough time, I dont' want to be annoying by trying to
be contradictaryor positive or rub my experiences in people's faces. I could ignore the good
things and focus on the bad stuff too. I am trying not to be negative for what I think might be
people in a similar place as I was 13 year ago...at a crossroads where the future looks grim.
You get a dozen people tell you this and you can possibly miss out on opportunities. I don't
want to be annoying, and out of respect to anders and others going through bad times I'll stop.
THis IS a flamenco forum, and only because of the language and the popularity of guitar is that
most topics focus on guitar stuff. We have the cante topic and cante accomp. thread and other
things that only require attention of those that care about it.
Ricardo
_____________________________
CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Jan. 15 2013 18:34:59
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estebanana
Posts: 9352
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)
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It's interesting to note what Eric said about the difference between Holland and Andalucia. It is similar to the difference between Northern California and Andalucia. There is a of concentration of aficionados here that don't have to watch bad flamenco or flamenco derived TV commercials, we don't have the negative attitudes towards Gitanos here that you can palpably feel in Andalucia sometimes.
We also don't have the immersion in flamenco culture and the bars and meeting places as you would in Spain. It is kind of manufactured, but not all bad. Quite the contrary most people here want the main four palos to be performed and not really lighter flamenco fare. We can also fill a large auditorium or venue for a cante' only performance, of course depending on the singer.
So being outside of Spain does have a few small advantages, it helps weed out which flamenco actually gets here without having to weed through all the "filler" of flamencoid like acts that must be annoying to those who live in Spain.
Yesterday when I said I was saturated with certain parts of the flamenco cottage industry, I meant it, but that is how a lot of people make a living. I wonder though how much you have to step back from it to recharge your batteries if you are always putting out energy to teach students and not taking in enough flamenco food for yourself? And from the point of making guitars, the flamenco crowd alone is not enough to sustain a guitar making practice, so it is just a reality that is has a component of telling yourself a little lie to keep going. Eventually you hit a wall and have to diversify the practice in some way. Or be independently wealthy....
But I would say that whether or not you bust down the door and keep making your living in the flamenco cottage industry or move to something else, there is not a rule as to which is better. Flamenco is not better than butterfly collecting if you get great joy out of lepidoptery. It's up to each person to determine how great are the diminishing returns from a project, and how much you can endure if you want to succeed.
And as Ricardo says if you keep playing more and more opportunities will open up and you'll naturally progress into moments of irreplaceable joy. But who is to say that if you take a turn towards the sea or a turn towards the mountains in life that you will not find those moments anywhere? Moments are moments whether they are flamenco moments or for example dirt bike riding or bird watching moments.
Some peoples trajectories though life are not naturally linear, some have to make several turns. You can't hold it against them if they have to make a non flamenco course correction to see joy.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Jan. 15 2013 20:13:53
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
I was talking about the style of solea, the unique melody timing and delivery, not only the lyrics.
Chozas didn’t know about the 8-syllable verse, his lines were way too long and he could only squeeze the words in by doctoring the melody. His characteristic soleá should probably be considered a new style, but aficionados tend not to take him seriously.
quote:
Please point me in the direction of anybody singing their own made up style of solea (or siguiriya) alive today, that isn't taken as a joke, or considered "bad"as far as singing goes. I am not a big fan of Morente but for sure when he tried doing his own versions of cante melodies some aficionados said he was the assassin of cante etc.
Morente went beyond doing “versions” of existing cante. He created songs that he sang to flamenco compás. But compás alone doesn’t identify flamenco forms. Arcángel often does the same thing, Carmen Linares did it tonight at her concert here in Nimes. It’s like trying to invent an entire new flamenco corpus overnight. I urge anyone interested in this topic read the following review of Carmen Linares’ recital at the 2008 Bienal de Sevilla:
http://www.deflamenco.com/revista/resenas-actuaciones/xv-bienal-de-flamenco-de-sevilla-raices-y-alas-carmen-linares-juan-carlos-romero1-1.html
Interestingly, alegrías slipped years ago into its current free-wheeling mode that allows for original songs to be applied to its framework, and no one has blinked. As recently as 30 years ago there were no more than 4 styles of alegrías (and a handful of cantiñas).
quote:
And aside from that, as you are on the same boat as anders that cante is almost dead...who still alive "does it"for you these days?
There are many many fine singers, some of them very young, but the vast majority are unable to make a living through cante, so they have day jobs and tend not to be known outside of flamenco circles. Among professionals, we’ve still got Pele and Manuel Moneo among others, and younger singers like Samuel Serrano and Miguel Lavi. Miguel Poveda is also capable of some terrific moments.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Jan. 17 2013 1:57:44
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