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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas.
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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 RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to bursche)
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quote:
Peñas, Bars, Zambras, all these places are having a hard time due to the severe fine policy of local spanish governments. That makes the places seem quite these days. But there is still so much going on in private.
Speaking of Granada, there are many young artists who appreciate cante jondo as much as a grooving rumba, guitarists who learned seguiriyas by Riqueni and tell all their frllow singers they want to do seguiriyas to try the material, bar owners who will even pay foreign guitarists for a gig if they play well because people still love the music.
There are young people keeping flamenco a living art. I don't see how it can be dying.
I don't understand your pessimism Anders.
I´m glad you have possitive experiences. Thats good, but I dont agree with your vision of the scene and its not something to do with the government and economical crisis. This actually started before.
Its also ok if you dont think that the observations that Morante and I have are interesting. Thats up to you. They are based on living here MANY years and not on comming from outside visiting flamenco friends. (the socalled microkosmos)
Basically we are talking about two different things. I believe when you say that there are cantaores in Granada (and many other places) that are interested in learning and studying the art. Who accept that its a LOT of work to learn. And I still hope and believe that the scene will survive and that we in 1 or 2 decades will have Cante Jondo. But it might be in a much smaller scale and only conserved by few.
What Morante and I say is more general based on everyday observations all over Andalucia during years. And there is a strong tendency, that flamenco is not what it was. Less interest, and especially a tendency to focus more and more on the light repatoire. The party and easy flamenco.
Besides, the huge majority of young Andalusians are not interested at all in flamenco and find it to be old fashion, dusty and pasé. I go to Sevilla quite often to se Sole´s kids which are the 20th. I see their friends, I go other places as well and the picture is the same. They are not interested. Peñas and bars are closing. But what is more interesting is that they were empty before they closed. And it started before this eco crisis.
Use this information the way you want. But saying that its negative that Morante and I say out loud what we observe is to be blind and it wont help flamenco one bit at all. We are NOT trying to make a negative picture of flamenco. We are trying to say what is there.... Now use that info.
Flamenco has been through tough times before and has survived. Hopefully it´ll do so again. I believe it will and I dont believe its negative to say how things are
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 13 2013 8:54:44
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Anders Eliasson
Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to KMMI77)
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Is it cante jondo that's disappearing or the collective vibe from another time?
I believe that music always perfectly reflects its time in history. When i watch older videos of jondo flamenco, I get a sense of the atmosphere in the room ,and a sense of the vibe coming from the people. The vibe and social behavior of people has changed so much since those days. Many changes for the better, and other changes that are not so great. Either way, Imo it was the collective vibe of the time that produced the specific cante jondo that your referring to.
Where would you prefer that flamenco went back to and stayed?
Do you have an ideal regarding what you want to experience through flamenco? IMO you need to find that for yourself ,and not complain because other flamencos aren't finding it for you, or showing you the way to it.
[/quote]
Lots of questions Kris, so I cut it down a bit. I hope you dont mind.
First of all, I´m NOT referring to any specific style of anything. Cante Jondo has nothing to do with an era or a time. Cante Jondo is the backbone of flamenco.
So, I dont want to go back.. I want to be where I am now. I have no specific likings on the flamenco time scale. This is NOT the old versus new discussion.
But if those wanting to learn flamenco dont want to learn Cante Jondo, then they want to learn nothing. Its the same as someone wanting to learn to play flamenco guitar but not wanting to learn the compás.
What would like to experience in flamenco is something social built on the backbone of flamenco, which I´ve just tryed to explain what it is. And believe me. I have really tried during the years I´ve been here, but I have found les and less and less.
_____________________________
Blog: http://news-from-the-workshop.blogspot.com/
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Date Jan. 13 2013 16:25:09
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3458
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
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Anders,
I have no idea about the state of flamenco in Andalucia and no basis on which to comment on it. I do have a great deal of respect for your opinions, however, as you have lived in Andalucia for nearly 12 years and know the region, its people, and its music intimately. When you say that most Andalucians do not listen to flamenco and do not care about it, I trust that to be true. I can imagine that the young people in Andalucia, like young people everywhere, care more about "world music" and other musical offshoots than they do about their own cultural tradition of flamenco.
Frankly, I am surprised at the number of comments on the Foro that challenge you on this issue. They seem to miss your main point that cante jondo (the mother and heart of flamenco) is disappearing, not to mention that, as stated above, most Andalucians don't care about flamenco anyway. To use the example of an 11-year old girl watching Camaron on Youtube and then immediately switching to "schoolgirl pop" is hardly evidence that Andalucian youth are engaging with flamenco. Its almost as if those aficionados living outside of Spain want so badly to believe flamenco (including most importantly cante jondo) is alive and well in its birthplace that they don't want to hear anything that disrupts their cherished narrative. Your challengers appear to be basing their comments more on a wish than on the reality you present.
Cheers,
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jan. 13 2013 17:22:37
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zata
Posts: 659
Joined: Jul. 17 2003
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RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Dave K)
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quote:
quote:
I found out the venerable Peña Chacón many of you know has gone from about 300 paying members to fewer than 20
Supports what Anders and Morante are saying. What time span are you referring to Estela?
According to the president, "in just a couple of years"! The Chacón is owned by the members, and has been put up for sale. So sad...
The economic situation is hitting hard in Jerez, other peñas will be closing, there's no more money for them from the municipal government, and anyone hoping to attend the Festival de Jerez, don't delay, even last year there was talk about it's being canceled for lack of funding, but in the end it was saved by the many courses staged as part of the festival. This year it's also scheduled, starting on February 22, but there's no guarantee it will continue to be held.
_____________________________
Estela Zatania
www.deflamenco.com
www.expoflamenco.com
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Date Jan. 13 2013 21:29:55
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