RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas.

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Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Erik van Goch)

quote:

I totally love this one:

So do I, but I didnt post it because I found it to be to radical for this forum.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 9:13:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to bursche)

quote:

At least in Granada and Sevilla it is

I can imagine and here we have serious problem, that could be discussed in another thread.
IMO, flamenco is in deep sh*it crisis in Andalucia. This is the way its going. Every day less and less cante jondo and more and more of this soft pop semi flamenco.

I have taken my decission.. I will be leaving when I can. Its not worth it anymore.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 9:17:22

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to bursche)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bursche

I consider this flamenco, it's a juerga classic:

Above post perfectly illustrates Anders claim ANDALUSIAN FLAMENCO IS GOING TO THE DOGS....at first it's hardly noticeable, but gradually step by step.......

but as you notice at the very end everything might "land on your feet" again (proper use and expression of language is going to the dogs as well i see).

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_'going_to_the_dogs'_mean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 12:39:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

IMO, flamenco is in deep sh*it crisis in Andalucia. This is the way its going. Every day less and less cante jondo and more and more of this soft pop semi flamenco.

Good grief you sound like Matrona and Melchor back in 71. Flamenco lived on. Can't you just sit back, relax, and wait for the inevitable neo-classical flamenco renaissance like me? Didn't you see that cute girl playing solea por fandango and that young guy singing like vallejo? Patience.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 14:56:35

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

IMO, flamenco is in deep sh*it crisis in Andalucia. This is the way its going.

I met plenty of young singers who rather perform Soleares or Tarantas as soon as they are with a good guitarist who does tasteful accompaniment.
As long as there are young people adding their bits to the art you have to live with a lot of change. I don't see any crisis. I'd rather say that singing is remaining where it went to with Camarón whilst guitar playing is still becoming more and more sophisticated each year. Dancing experiences many innovations too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 14:59:25

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Didn't you see that cute girl playing solea por fandango and that young guy singing like vallejo? Patience.

You have to show me

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 15:00:50

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ricardo and Bursche, its so much easyer to do so when you dont live here... You dont see the everyday life. If you go to your little incrowded group, then you see and live flamenco. Its like all kinds of microkosmos. And you might not see what is around you. What I´m talking about is much more general and a much more open perspective.

I´ve lived in Andalucia for close to 12 years now and there´s a lot less flamenco now than 10 years ago. Less shows, less people playing/singing/dancing. A lot less

But what I have disliked even more is another thing.
I´ve been a member of 3 peñas over the years and I happily drove to town 2 times a week to play with singers. Once a week to play with the older amateur singers and once a week to accompany the singing classes.

The older singers were more interested in getting drunk and having the same discussion about Camarón and Mairena every time. Very little singing and playing. So I stopped.

In all 3 peñas happened the same in the singing classes. The young pupils only wanted to do flamenco light, like in the video by Bursche. Some Potito, some Estrella morente etc. Only Tangos, Rumbas, Bulerias, Fandangos de Huelva and Alegrias. They didnt want to do Cante Jondo. Not at all. Once the teacher gave all a Granaina and after a month, noone had learned a letra, so he asked why... And the answer was that it was ugly...
So, in all 3 places I stopped. 10 month ago, I stopped playing flamenco because I felt my time was over.

And yes, I will sit back very soon and relax and then you wont have to read my posts about flamenco. Because I have a feeling that is growing and has been doing so for a couple of years, that this place is not for me. Its not where I belong.

I have very often been told that I was only on this forum in order to sell guitars, so very soon, it´ll be like that. I will only be in the Luthiery and classifieds section. And maybe I wont even be there.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 15:11:12

Morante

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Joined: Nov. 21 2010

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 11 2013 16:58:46

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 16:30:22

Morante

Posts: 2181
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anders

Tienes toda la razón. I've lived in Andalucía for 20 years and flamenco in Cádiz has almost disappeared. In 1999, we had juergas every night with Juan Silva: I ended up making his one and only record. Then I had juergas, weddings, communiones etc playing for José Millán.

Now Juan has lost his voice after a throat operation, José is dead. There are no juergas anymore because the generation of juerguistas has disappeared.

There are great young singers from gitano families in the barrio, such as May Fernandez, who wants to make a record like la Niña Pastori, or Jesús el Bohiga, who wants to make a record of flamenquito. And nobody wants to sing all night for afición like before. Not for nothing I have stopped making records and stored my flamenco guitar.

All of the professionals from Cádíz live in Sevilla and make their living from playing in dance companies, which is the only kind of "flamenco" that foreigners seem to understand.

Were it not for the gitano families of Jerez and some from Lebrija, el cante would be dead already.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 17:00:01

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Societies do need some new impulses every now and than to flourish and studies seem to show some of those impulses has to come from outsiders. When i started to visit flamenco concerts in the Netherlands on a regular base (early 80ties) PDL still generated the biggest ovations for his lightning picados rather then for a well played seguiriyas (which he didn't do much if i remember well)...but Dutch public became more and more knowledgeable/skilled over the years when growing numbers of people started to play/dance flamenco them self.

When Farruquito and his family visited the Netherlands a couple of years ago the music hall was packed with the creme de la creme of dutch guitarists and dancers..... as it turned out we were quite immune for the salvo of "tourists like this" stuff presented by some members of the Farruquito family....and the more they tried to generate applause the lesser they did.......until after the break a Seguiriyas was presented.....it was the first (if not only) decent piece of the night and it's breathtaking beauty was felt by everyone and did not only generate the first real applause but a huge and well deserved ovation...that night we made very clear that we prefer 1 fabulous seguiriyas over an evening packed with "tourists stuff".

Maybe encounters like this will turn some rocks on the long term. Argentinian tango was nearly dead until european public reanimated it which started a real revival. Tango players who hated Astor Piazzolla were suddenly forced to play his bloody compositions because the newly generated interested audience demanded it.

Let's hope this kind of "financial pressure" won't be needed for the Cante Jondo to keep alive in the hearts of both the public and the artists, but i most certainly have my fears as well. It's not easy to have a living as a performing/recording artist, especially when you ain't a big name yet....talented young Gypsies claim they still feel a lot of discrimination when it comes to being selected....can't judge that myself but sound's like life in full process.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 17:00:39

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Ok, before we put the gun in our mouths guys let me just say something. Yes, they don't sing like they used to. But, the simple fact that someone like myself could investigate this thing as an outsider, seeing from the outside in what happened along the way and acknowledge that in the old days singers were more skilled and had the heart for it too, and develop or change my tastes for the stuff, even at my not so tender age, gives me confidence that somewhere IN SPAIN there are infact youngsters that have the same thought and feeling as me.

All it would take is one person with the drive and charisma to influence his "crowd" to investigate and do better, investigate the old stuff and try to really do it well and at the same time add new personal details. ONce the "new thing" gets dried up, and it will I promise, there WILL be a revival. Internet resources such as norman's site with clear organized easy access examples could totally inspire a young person to investigate and save time to develop the skill. I saw that guy Jesus Mendez develop before my eyes one summer to the next from a kid that only sang some buleria (and the same old letras over and over at first) to a first rate cantaor (relatively speaking for the age he began getting serious). Flamenco was ALWAYS done by amateurs historically, it's ok that perhaps these days the same conditions are not present as in 1850. But if it interests ME then I KNOW it interests others and it's only a matter of time before a hero will come along and revive this thing you guys feel is "dead".

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 17:10:29

gerundino63

Posts: 1743
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

The Japanese will save the flamenco....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 17:21:12

Erik van Goch

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Internet resources such as norman's site with clear organized easy access examples could totally inspire a young person to investigate and save time to develop the skill. I saw that guy Jesus Mendez develop before my eyes one summer to the next from a kid that only sang some buleria (and the same old letras over and over at first) to a first rate cantaor

Ricardo

That's true and every now and then i see things i really like (like flamenco flamenco which although being more lighthearted showed new and tasteful developments)....but the same internet also brings other cultures more closely..... contact with those cultures can both enrich and pollute the flamenco...we live in exiting times and only time will tell were it "ends"...flamenco has survived so far and it most certainly will outlive us :-)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 17:24:40

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

If you have 5 min to waste, you could watch or listen to this vid.

My personnal feeling is that there's much of flamenco energy going on there. I certainly wouldn't consider what they're doing in this party as pop music.
There are certainly more Flamencos on there than I could ever reach myself. Even if I listen to cante jondo all day long or if I'd get some official degree.

Seeing these jovenes having some fun or the fat mama singing in his lounge vid I posted above, then I consider this form of rumba as part of the flamenco circle. I hardly could classify this as semi pop or watered down cante...but that's just me and i am not an expert nor live in andalucia.

Rumba catalana has another aspect/feel to my ears. I'd would call it just Rumba and differenciate it from flamenco.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 21:59:55

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Chingao, Gitanas bien guapas, quiero estar en este fiesta! I can't hear the guitars at all but it sounds like singing no? Looks like fun either way......

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:10:29

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I can't hear the guitars at all but it sounds like singing no?

Eventually if it were a bulerias juerga, there would have been more cigarette smoke, alcohol, and way more testosterone quedando por alli

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:31:03

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Eventually if it were a bulerias juerga, there would have been more cigarette smoke, alcohol, and way more testosterone quedando por alli

Sounds like my early 20's

I actually meant to say Tangos singing. I know rumba palmas and tangos palmas are more or less the same thing but those melodies seem really tangos to me, I'm still learning cante so I could be wrong...........

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:38:47

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Leñador)

quote:

I know rumba palmas and tangos palmas are more or less the same thing but those melodies seem really tangos to me,

here's more for your homework.

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:43:16

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

here's more for your homework.

I can dig it, You've got good taste in rumba mezzo, It's turned me around a little, I should spend some time learn rumba rasgueados, it seems fun in a juerga situation too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:52:47

mezzo

Posts: 1409
Joined: Feb. 18 2010
From: .fr

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to mezzo)

Or....

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"The most important part of Flamenco is not in knowing how to interpret it. The higher art is in knowing how to listen." (Luis Agujetas)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 22:53:23

granjuanillo

Posts: 32
Joined: Nov. 3 2009

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Well - flamenco is more about being flamenco than about what form you do - here is a super commercial performance by one of the most flamenco artists in history - Bambino! if anyone doesn't think this is flamenco, try telling it to the Gitanos in Utrera :-)

By the way, he also did killer bulerías - the second clip features Marote, Paco de Gastor (I think) and others on the guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 23:42:30

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

What do you guys think of Canelita?
From what I can tell he sings almost entirely bulerias/tangos/rumba/fandango and he's very popular but I think he has a great flamenco voice and charisma.
Obviously not a cante jondo singer and more emblematic of the "trashy" side of where flamenco is going but I think he's great honestly...
I think right now flamenco might be going through a little bit of an artistic downswing in Spain but it's coming off of incredible ~10 year or so mini golden age IMO and it will rise again. These things go in cycles...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 0:02:45

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to mezzo)

quote:

My personnal feeling is that there's much of flamenco energy going on there. I certainly wouldn't consider what they're doing in this party as pop music.
There are certainly more Flamencos on there than I could ever reach myself. Even if I listen to cante jondo all day long or if I'd get some official degree.

Seeing these jovenes having some fun or the fat mama singing in his lounge vid I posted above, then I consider this form of rumba as part of the flamenco circle. I hardly could classify this as semi pop or watered down cante...but that's just me and i am not an expert nor live in andalucia.

+1

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 0:04:02

flyhere

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Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 18 2013 3:18:34

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 0:08:39

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Without cante Jondo, there will be no flamenco left. Flamenco comes from Cante Jondo and if the roots dissappear...

What you upload might sound like flamenco singing, but it has nothing to do with Cante flamenco. I´m sorry.... but thats the way it is.

Gerundino might be right, that the japanese or the chinese will save flamenco, but I´m also pretty sure that this community wont save anything.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 7:53:16

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

What you upload might sound like flamenco singing, but it has nothing to do with Cante flamenco. I´m sorry.... but thats the way it is.

r u serious???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 18:27:15

tele

Posts: 1464
Joined: Aug. 17 2012

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to bursche)

As long as andalucia is there we have to really think if we have reason to complain about flamenco losing it's essence. Even if less people do it and with less spirit, flamenco still lives on. These days almost every culture is degenerating and instead of WHINING about it we better enjoy what we have and perhaps contribute if one can. Come on.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 18:43:59

Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

I´m also pretty sure that this community wont save anything.

The entire of foro flamenco is not puro enough to do anything to help promote cante jondo, this is pretty negative Anders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 19:29:03

bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Leñador)

Peñas, Bars, Zambras, all these places are having a hard time due to the severe fine policy of local spanish governments. That makes the places seem quite these days. But there is still so much going on in private.
Speaking of Granada, there are many young artists who appreciate cante jondo as much as a grooving rumba, guitarists who learned seguiriyas by Riqueni and tell all their frllow singers they want to do seguiriyas to try the material, bar owners who will even pay foreign guitarists for a gig if they play well because people still love the music.
There are young people keeping flamenco a living art. I don't see how it can be dying.
I don't understand your pessimism Anders.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 12 2013 19:52:38

flyhere

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Joined: Dec. 17 2012
From: California, USA

RE: Rumbas y los demás cosas. (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Hi Anders,

I am getting a bit depressed reading your post. Here I am thinking of dusting off my guitar and start learning flamenco, but it's going to be a dead art. I'll never be good enough to buy a real flamenco guitar.

fly

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 1:43:04