Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro

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escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro

Hello All,

First I would like to introduce myself - Name is Scott and I am from the great state of Idaho! Not too many flamenco resources around here so when I picked up an old yamaha c-40 a while back for 60 bucks on craigslist and modded it for flamenco it worked good for getting the ground laid. I am not new to the guitar and have played for several years on electric as well as bass, but on a trip to spain a few years back I fell in love with flamenco and just a few months ago I started practicing it. I've lurked on here a while as it is an outstanding source of information and quality discussion regarding all things flamenco.

Anyways throughout all my research and saving I am finally able to upgrade to a true beginner flamenco. Here in Idaho its pretty much gonna have to be an order online somewhere so I have narrowed it down to these.

Camps m5s shown here
http://www.leihinstrumente.com/Guitars/Flamenco-Guitars/Camps-M5-S.html
Or the m7s shown here
http://www.leihinstrumente.com/Guitars/Flamenco-Guitars/Camps-M7-S.html

These models are also I'm assuming closely identical to the mundo-flamenco variety as the 2f and 3f.
http://mundo-flamenco.com/en/gitarren-neu/126--550-mundo-flamenco-3f
http://mundo-flamenco.com/en/gitarren-neu/127--750-mundo-flamenco-2f

I am drawn to the camps because of the audio clips played by amir, as well as him even selecting those guitars to sell which says something considering how much of an accomplished player he is.

On the other hand we have the Navarro Student blanca or negra - probably leaning toward the blanca as its my first real flamenco guitar - If I were to decide to go with the Navarro - but as dumb as it sounds something makes me want a guitar from Spain rather than Mexico, even though I know it is irrelevant.

I will say I am also partial to the aesthetics of the Camps.

As you can see my budget is right around where these guitars are priced. I realize these types of posts get annoying, but since I am in Idaho I don't have much of a chance to play anything other than the yamaha 172 and maybe some cordobas.

Any comments would be very appreciated. Thanks!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 7 2013 21:22:59

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

Hi escot,

buying at Mundo Flamenco is definitively a good choice, because the manager sells only guitars he personally has selected at the workshop. Camps makes good flamenco guitars. Out of your budget I published a review about the Primera model for the Akustik Gitarre magazine in Germany some years ago. Also the lower priced Camps guitars you have in focus are worth its price. A problem that might occur is the difference of the sound quality in each model ranche that can spread clearly. So you can be sure for making a good deal with Mundo Flamenco. This shop is also my absolute recommendation in Germany.

Against your statement to focus on a guitar from Spain I state to focus on a guitar that has a body of cypruss! It sounds more aggressive and has more "bite" instead of maple, that sound more bravely - just my 2 cents, because I don´t like it for flamenco guitars. Buying from Germany will reduce directly your budget in order to shipping costs and custom fees.

Maybe you can get a used Cordoba F10 or an Almansa 447 (new "on the street" price around 880 €). Both have all-solid woods. I would prefer the Almansa. Important is to make an agreement to check the guitar for a few days at home whether you cannot check at the seller. Sometimes there are also used Hermanos Sanchís López F2 availabe. I only would check this model whether its constructed from 2005 on. All older models have missplaced frets. This error was corrected in all 2005 models.

Regarding small hands the Cordoba and Almansa models have 650/52 mm scale and are very easy to play while the HSL F2 has 660/53 mm that I have serious problems with.

Forget about any flamencas with sycomore body.

Hope I could help a little bit.

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 1:19:06

escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to bernd)

Bernd,

Thanks for all the feedback it is very helpful. Mundo Flamenco really does look like a quality shop there is no doubt about that. I searched for that article on the primera but was unable to find it.

I'm glad you had an opinion on the maple vs cypress. There isn't a ton of information out there on why some manufacturers have a few models that use maple instead, seeing that cypress is the standard. And your opinion is accepted and I will stay clear of maple!

I had not come across the Almansa yet and will def give that a look, because upon first glance it looks like a real quality instrument. For some reason I have never liked the idea of a Cordoba, even tho the f10 does look nice.

I'm glad you brought up the issue of scale because I wasn't paying attention to that - and because I too have medium to small size hands and I think the 650/52 combo would be best for me, nothing larger.

All things considered, yes I have a budget which can accommodate the Almansa 447, do I need to spend that much more since I am still relatively new into all this? Or would the modestly priced Camps m5s be sufficient?

Also, any word on the Navarro Student? I'm still considering it because that can be had for a good price too for an all solid body. Thanks for the help.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 3:10:10

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

Hi escot,

my review on the Camps Primera was published in No 6/2006. 2 month earlier the Camps brothers showed me this wonderful guitar on the international Frankfurt Music Fair. If it might help you, I can send you a manuscript copy by Email.

Regarding the Navarro Student I´m sorry to have no personal info this guitar. Whether you still consider this (or any) guitar, check the following:
1) Straight neck is a MUST!
2) Playability at nut
3) Playability at bridge
4) Frets
5) Cracks
6) Golpeador
7) Sound

To 1) If the neck is not straight - meaning: no twisting sideways - you will have to pay some extra amount to correct this by a guitar maker. This can be very cost intensively!

To 2) I have seen guitars where the nut was changed by the owner. If the nut is too high, you´ll need more force to press down the strings at the first fret. Thats quite uncomfortable. A too low nut makes string buzzing on open strings by normal mezzoforte stroke (giving me the rest of frustration). Play also strong apoyando strokes on the trebble strings up the fretboard. Some guitars stop "singing" from the 10th fret on. If so, I´ll directly decline. Whether e.g. the Alamansa loses substance around the 15th or 16th fret, I would tolerate this. Action at 12th fret of more than 4.5 mm is a no-go!

To 3) The action at bridge is very important to the i- and m-golpe technique. The higher the action the more you´ll have to need a longer nail plate. Very good are 7 to 7.5 mm. Actions under 7 mm can disturb, because the nails can touch the top and making noise by playing picados and arpegios. 9.5 mm is just acceptable, but you need a long nail plate for not beeing hurt by playing an i-golpe above the E6 string. This is often a problem with small hands. An absolute no-go for me in person is any action beyond 9.5 mm. The lower the action the better to play! But note too: The lower the bridge the lower the volume, especially under 7 mm.

To 4) Put your thump + index finger on each side on the outside fingerboard edge at the first fret playing position and move slowly upwards to the 12th at the body joint. If you feel any fretwires coming over the edge, this is an indicator for wood drying. When the fretboard drys, it becomes a little bit smaller. In this case you´ll have to pay attention on the top besides the fretboard. Sometimes there a long cracks to find (dryness cracks caused by the fretboard). Both - wider fret wire and dryness cracks - should help to push the price down.

To 5) As in addition to point 4, take attentive looks to the complete top for cracks, especially around the bridge. Some dings around the golpeador are ok. Whether the guitar is all-solid, pay attention to the complete body. Note that cracks must be repaired and cause extra cost.

To 6) The golpeador should be installed with a small gap of 0.5 to 1 mm to the bridge. This is important if it must be replaced to a new one, because you can wipe off the dissolver from the bridge. Without this gap here is a serious risk for dissolving the bridge, if a layman is doing it. If there is no golpeador, the guitar cannot be used as a flamenca, because the top will be damaged! Some lower priced flamencas have just one small golpeador under the first string. If so, you cannot play an i-golpe above the 6th string. Some flamencas have a two-piece golpeador with an additional one above the 6th string. You can play all golpes, but the space between the strings is unprotected. So I always prefer a one-piece big one giving maximum protection. If the installed golpeador lifts up or dissolves, it needs to be renewed.

To 7) Play and hear what you like best! I pay attention to an equally percussive tone, fast response with an aggressive punch and a kind of substance that we call in German "snotty". In Spanish the term is "rancio" - a kind of special dirtyness making the guitar more flamenco. I´ve played some Almansas 447 bringing all this quite effectively, but also some dead ladies of this model, too. The more you pay the more you get - normally, if you make a good deal.

Regarding your question whether the Camps is sufficient, I cannot make your decission. My way is to check the instruments, write a pro & contra list and to wait some time. Sometimes I make a rational decission between the basics and the price or the extras and its price. My experience is that it makes more fun playing a better guitar.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 13:12:17

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

escot,
I would suggest the Navarro student model as I've compared it to the Yamaha 171 flamenco and a Rodriguez C3F and while you will typically pay more, its hard to beat. Its all solid wood and I really feel its an instrument that could easily grow with your development. If you find flamenco not too your liking in the future, it is easier to sell than say a brand relatively unknown here in the states.

Used Navarro's are around and there are several distributors that handle his guitars one is La Falseta and I believe he is a member here. If you find a trustworthy dealer they can sometimes pick a "good one" for you. I would use the search function and see all the reviews of Navarro. Really they are a bargain for what you get...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 20:15:19

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to sig)

Yes of course, La Falseta is a member. Here his nick is TANúñez. You can contact him via this forum in this thread, where he has replied some words:
www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=216120&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

Good luck, escot

. Let us know your decission.

1saludo
Bernd

EDIT
I´ve just been to Tom´s website. There is Navarro Student Flamenco 2 with a sound example, sounds great! Scroll completely down:
http://www.lafalseta.com/navarro_flamencos.html

_____________________________

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 20:33:20

escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to sig)

bernd,

Thanks so much for taking the time to detail out all that info, I really appreciate it. I will only be able to go thru this list once I have received the guitar though since guitar center doesn't carry anything i'd be interested in.

Regarding the Camps, I actually was speaking with Johannes from Mundo Flamenco and he mentioned that he was currently in Spain and found a Chinese made guitar for 350 euro that he said sounded better than his mundo flamenco 2f - that right there says it all to me as far as that guitar goes. I was originally drawn to it for the price and the audio clips on their site but after that comment I think I will pass.

There is always such good things to be heard about the Navarro I'm definitely leaning toward that as of now.

Sig thanks for pointing out the point of the resale value as this is good thinking. It seems that a lot of Navarro owners use the student model for a while and either outgrow the instrument or find they are moving out of flamenco, have a very easy time selling the guitar for good money.

One more thing, I actually will be in Spain for a short while in the near future, but from what I've read, the Navarro is still the best value out there in the price range its in for a student flamenco guitar. From what all the research I've done you cant get an all solid body student guitar for that price from a luthier in Spain. or have I overlooked something?

Basically I need to know if you think I should get the Navarro now, or wait a bit to get something in Spain? I'd like to keep costs as low as possible.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 8 2013 23:51:30

Heartfeltflamenco

Posts: 57
Joined: Jul. 13 2012

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

i think navarro.

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http://www.luiscruzguitars.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2013 5:43:14

bernd

Posts: 680
Joined: Feb. 15 2004

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

Hi escot,

yes, Johannes is currently in Spain on a Luthiers trip untill 22 January.

If you want to keep the costs as low as possible and want to go to Spain, you will have to put the charges for flight, hotel and customs in addition to the guitar price. And taking the guitar into the jet can be very riskful. So you will need to spend some extra money on very stable guitar case, maybe a Hiscox. Surely you remember the song "United breaks Guitars" on youtube ;-)

Note that the cheapest guitar at Mundo Flamenco is a Cordoba 7F made in China. If a guitar is good for a price, to me it´s all the same where it comes from. But there is one point regarding the climatical relations. Germany has no guitar-friendly climatic conditions. I don´t know whether the chinese construction company uses devices to keep the humidity in the workshop at roundabout 50 %, but I wouldn´t trust in it.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2013 5:52:31

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

escot,
No prob on the advice and if Navarro had been making student grade guitars when I bought my first flamenco, I would have skipped the Rodriguez C3F and bought the Navarro. Don't let the made in Spain legend sway your purchase, many of the intro and mid level instruments are made in Spain alright but in factories in Valencia. There are shops that purchase these factory made instruments and then they are labeled with the shop's name and sell them under their brand. I owned an Amalio Burguet 1F flamenco which was solid cypress and spruce and a good instrument. I paid $1,600 for my 1F used and I played both a Navarro and the Burguet next to each other and the Navarro was better from an overall sound and feel standpoint and if you watch the used market you can get a used Navarro for anywhere between $600 - $750 bucks...

Hope this helps.
Sig--

Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 9 2013 15:45:02

escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

Sig, Bernd, Heartfelt

Thank you for all your input on this topic. I think the best thing for me at this time is to go with a cheaper guitar since I will be moving around quite a bit in the next 6-8 months. It may end up being the Cordoba f7 I go with simply because of the cost and its play-ability is a good value ratio from what I've been learning. This will give me a chance to really practice in that time, then once I get settled in more permanently in a location I will go ahead and look back at the Navarro, by that time it may end up being maybe I jump up to the concert flamenco if my skills can warrant it by then. I would invest in the student at this time but with all the moving around and flying I'm looking at I wouldn't want to risk something unfortunate happening to it. This is my current thinking as of this time, I'll keep you posted on what ends up happening. Wish me luck! Thanks again for all your input. This forum is an incredible resource.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 10 2013 16:56:30

Heartfeltflamenco

Posts: 57
Joined: Jul. 13 2012

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to escot)

good idea . the concert one is better choice .

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http://www.luiscruzguitars.com/

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 16:15:59

Ruphus

Posts: 3782
Joined: Nov. 18 2010

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to bernd)

quote:

ORIGINAL: escot

I actually was speaking with Johannes from Mundo Flamenco and he mentioned that he was currently in Spain and found a Chinese made guitar for 350 euro that he said sounded better than his mundo flamenco 2f - that right there says it all to me as far as that guitar goes. I was originally drawn to it for the price and the audio clips on their site but after that comment I think I will pass.

I wouldn´t think this to have been the way Johannes meant it. Rather should this be an example for how straight he can be.

You must know that there do happen lucky strikes in cheap batches from time to time.
I have such a cheapo parlor whichs properties to match you would need frisking the upper shelves for a while first.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bernd

Note that the cheapest guitar at Mundo Flamenco is a Cordoba 7F made in China. If a guitar is good for a price, to me it´s all the same where it comes from. But there is one point regarding the climatical relations. Germany has no guitar-friendly climatic conditions. I don´t know whether the chinese construction company uses devices to keep the humidity in the workshop at roundabout 50 %, but I wouldn´t trust in it.

Yep, me too.

Used to have an acoustic bass from China that played and sounded incredibly wonderful until one day when I opened the case to see that this had happened:

Unfortunately it was built of green wood.
`Other than that´it truely was an unbelievable bang for the buck.

Ruphus

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 11 2013 16:52:21

escot

Posts: 28
Joined: Jan. 2 2013

RE: Need to buy guitar - Camps/Navarro (in reply to Ruphus)

Ruphus,

I didn't mean to put it exactly like that, he just kind of hinted at that, and it was the 3f not the 2f. He was not talking down or saying anything directly. Anyways regardless of what he said you're probably right with the bad batch good batch type situation coming from these factory guitars because I have heard similar things else where.

Too bad that happened to your bass, but I guess that is the risk you run with lower end factory stuff, worth the risk in some cases. So I might end up taking that risk!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 13 2013 17:46:48